Hindgut issues?

[hwake]

How likely is hindgut acidosis/ulcers if a horse has constant access to forage and very little hard/starchy feed?

Pony is 11yo half-Arab mare who spends most of her time in a dry lot on a round bale with a small herd. Limited grass turnout when weather is cooperative. Once a day she gets a pound of TC balancer with Equishure and powdered Cu/Zn supplement. Last year she also got half a pound of Triumph Fiber Plus (beet pulp-based pellet) as a carrier for Vermont Blend Pro but we stopped that several months ago. We also tried Uckele GUT pellets for about 6 months which didn’t seem to help. I do feed a cup of Outlast before trailering or riding.

Gut symptoms: she’s very sensitive to touch on her right side barrel/flank, paws when I’m grooming that side. She will swing her head around to nose at me when I’m grooming there, or less frequently when we’re riding in the ring. Very gassy. She also has drippy butt - not diarrhea, her poops are normal, but she’ll just be standing around and dribble out several drops of liquid (juuuust enough to make her fetlocks crusty).

She can be picky about her feed - doesn’t love powder, spat out pelleted Cu/Zn - but is a good drinker and loves her round bale. Will eat grass anywhere. Easy keeper, though I feel like her recent belly bulge is more related to bloat than fat.

I plan on discussing the possibility of gastric ulcers with the vet, but from what I’ve read these mostly sound more like hindgut issues than stomach and can be difficult to get a positive diagnosis on. Is there anything else this could be? Or are there any other hindgut supplements/treatments I should keep an eye out for?

[FitToBeTied]

Omeprazole (sp) and products like it don’t do anything for hind gut issues. Sucralfate (sp?) is what is needed. Sucralfate is a little more complicated than omeprazole to feed since it can inhibit the intake of other medications. You have to give it an hour before other meds or two hours after. It also works best if not given with grain. We mix it with apple sauce and either syringe it in or put in their feed bucket depending on whether they are in the barn or out in the field.

[stargzng386]

Absolutely possible. I have a Shetland pony who coliced badly early this winter. She’s been in a drylot for about a year with 24/7 hay and no hard feeds. We treated with gastrogard and there was no difference and then treated the hindgut and she’s a completely different horse. She used to refuse most feeds, any supplements, anything wet or soaked. After a month of hindgut treatment she’s now inhaling a wet mash with multiple supplements mixed in and electrolytes. A lot of times when their stomach hurts they just aren’t crazy about eating much.

[GraceLikeRain]

@hwake

How likely is hindgut acidosis/ulcers if a horse has constant access to forage and very little hard/starchy feed?

I can only speak anecdotally but one of mine was out on a round bale. She felt pretty hay belly and after the barn started bringing in rye grass her manure had larger bits of visible hay and she had very sulphuric gas. Nothing else really screamed hindgut but it was enough to concern me. I ended up moving to a barn that does free choice fescue with supplemental alfalfa, 60 days of succeed, GUT supplement, and zinc. In about 45 days her manure and gas were totally normal. Not sure if it was formally hind gut but something was definitely up. JB gave me some very helpful insight and recommended the feedroom podcast on the hindgut, which gave me strong foundational knowledge.

[JB]

Unlikely, but still possible

The drippy butt iwth normal manure is classic fecal water syndrome, which is when all the extra water needed to make manure balls soft enough and keep them moving through the gut, isn’t absorbed at the end of the journey, so it leaks out after (usually) the normal manure pile. So you might start searching here for that - FFWS, free fecal water syndrom, fecal water syndrome

If she’s eating Orchardgrass hay, see if you can trial a differnt hay for 1-2 weeks, as OG is a hay commonly implicated in FWS

There are also various supplements to try, the cheapest being plain psyllium, feed daily for at least 2 weeks, probably 3/4-1c for her size. HorseTech makes WaterWerks which has several different ingredients that have each helped these horses.

[alpine1]

A friend suspected hindgut ulcers in my fussy horse, but when I consulted the vet, she said a horse with hindgut ulcers would be near death.

"…even horses predominantly or entirely on hay diets are being diagnosed with hind gut ulcers based on vague and totally nonspecific symptoms such as ‘not liking their flanks touched’ or dragging their toes. They are being treated with the goal of neutralizing acidity in their hind gut. Some are even given medications to stop acid secretion in the stomach despite the fact there are no acid secreting cells in the hind gut. One extremely pricey supplement contains only low doses of ingredients that would be digested and absorbed before they reached the hind gut.

Disturbances of the hind gut/large intestine definitely exist but the correct treatment is to find the cause and correct it. ‘Hind gut ulcers’ is not a real disease."

https://horsenetwork.com/2016/04/truth-hind-gut-ulcers/

[PaddockWood]

Lots of good advice here already and my journey, coming up on two years, with my new guy has had me try many and almost every one of the ideas suggested above. Most helped - notably the sulcralfate, Equisure, and the psyllium for loose stools. My guy too was very touchy about grooming and especially the right side. All that is gone. He’s always been gassy, loose stools, and also very smelly manure.

A month ago or so I stumbled onto the Kermin website with some 15 vet presentations on all kinds of topics. Very, very worthwhile. Leaky gut really jumped out at me and my guy ticks most boxes. And notably, switching hind legs and resting them. Odd.

Leaky%20Gut%20Syndrome%20-%20Symptoms,%20Causes%20and%20Preventions.pdf

In a month on Stride’s GI Calm we have even more progress. He’s noticeably happier, some days manure is normal now, no smell, no resting hind legs, less gas, not bothered at all for grooming, more energy under saddle, no itching.

Even put my IR mare with dry, dry biscuit manure on the supplement and her manure noticeably improved. Turns out leaky gut might be something many horses are bothered by. And a leaky gut affects horses that are IR too.

If you’re interested in EquiSummit presentations, you just register and then you have access.
Nutritionists like Dr. Jyme Nichols, Clair Thunes and various vets around the country present on several topics. All worthwhile.

EquiSUMMIT™ Equine Nutrition & Health Conference | Kemin USA

[hwake]

I will check out the podcast - thank you for the recommendation!

[hwake]

I probably can’t change the hay due to the constraints of my boarding situation (the only way to keep her off the herd bale would be to stall her full-time, which would probably result in either her death or mine) but I will definitely do more research on FWS.

Does the psyllium husk do anything to resolve the underlying issues causing the FWS (leaky gut, etc)? Or is it more of a mechanical symptom relief from it soaking up any excess liquid in the manure?

[hwake]

My mare is also an itchy sort (has to roll after every ride… will stop and rub her face on trees and fenceposts in the middle of a hack) and I do catch her cocking a hind foot fairly frequently. I thought that was just a resting posture but I will keep an eye on it.

Will definitely check out the EquiSummit presentations.

How long did you keep your horse on the sucralfate and psyllium? And is the GI Calm a supp you plan on continuing indefinitely, weaning off of (does leaky gut resolve after treatment?), or transitioning to another supplement? Obviously if it works, then it’s worth it, but a month’s supply of it costs half as much as my board bill (!!)

[JB]

@hwake

I probably can’t change the hay due to the constraints of my boarding situation (the only way to keep her off the herd bale would be to stall her full-time, which would probably result in either her death or mine) but I will definitely do more research on FWS.

that’s the reality in a lot of places. It’s something to consider, since if it IS the hay, you’re not likely to supplement your way out of it

@hwake

Does the psyllium husk do anything to resolve the underlying issues causing the FWS (leaky gut, etc)? Or is it more of a mechanical symptom relief from it soaking up any excess liquid in the manure?

research has shown that at around 2-ish weeks, the body adapts to psyllium and starts digesting it, and its fiber content makes improvements to the hind gut bacteria colony, and if that’s the underlying cause of the FWS, it can resolve it. IMHO that’s why some horses don’t do well on Assure Guard, but do on the Assure Guard Gold which is basically AG + psyllium. It’s why HorseTech includes it in the WaterWerks product

[hwake]

That is super helpful to know and may inform my next steps. Pony’s FWS symptoms aren’t severe - I’ve started browsing and seen a lot of photos of horses whose butts/hocks/tails are drenched, and am very thankful that my mare just does a few drops of poopy water at a time - so hopefully it’s caused by something that can be resolved with some smaller dietary changes instead of messing with turnout arrangements or finding a new barn.

Is there a huge difference between feeding psyllium husk powder vs whole flakes? Or a pelleted version? I know it’s supposed to be fed dry and pony is not great about eating powdered supplements - I already struggle getting her to eat a 30g scoop of Equishure so not sure what the success rate would be for 3/4-1 cup of psyllium.

[JB]

there’s no real reason you can’t give the pellets a try. I’ve never seen flakes, but I would assume that’s fine too

[PaddockWood]

@hwake

My mare is also an itchy sort (has to roll after every ride… will stop and rub her face on trees and fenceposts in the middle of a hack) and I do catch her cocking a hind foot fairly frequently. I thought that was just a resting posture but I will keep an eye on it.

That is SO interesting - all the same for my guy. I’d be out handwalking him around my 20 acres and we’d be cruising along and he’d stop like he was stuck and immediately rest a foot and I’d say to myself, “That ain’t right.” That is GONE. He does still stop on many days like he’s stuck but he also has PSSM2 so it could be that. He’s been an onion for sure.

And he would also roll every single day and especially if he’d had a saddle on. I would notice he would roll even when it was cold and wet. What’s interesting is he isn’t rolling nearly as much. Almost not so much.

@hwake

How long did you keep your horse on the sucralfate and psyllium? And is the GI Calm a supp you plan on continuing indefinitely, weaning off of (does leaky gut resolve after treatment?), or transitioning to another supplement? Obviously if it works, then it’s worth it, but a month’s supply of it costs half as much as my board bill (!!)

The sucralfate was just a month and the same for the psyllium. I do plan to stop the GI Calm. It will have been at least 30 days coming up and want to see if I can stop it and he continues to improve.

I agree, all this is crazy crazy expensive! Worth it if it repairs and heals but no need to continue if not needed.

My understanding is leaky gut can/does heal but can take a long time depending on the damage. AND, things like heat stress and well, any stress, can bring it back. Yipes right? My thought going forward might be to keep GI Calm on hand (or something like it - I’m always open to something less expensive) for short term stress like hauling out to a show. My goal for 2024 is get off my property and go to bridle paths, shows, etc and all that will be stressful for my mustang. Approach and retreat.

[hwake]

I feel ya! I’ve just bought another saddle (our fourth… and hopefully last, for awhile) getting to the root of some back and girth fit problems, and now that pony is feeling more comfortable under saddle some issues are getting better. Others, not so much. There’s always another layer.

Do you mind if I PM you for more info about your particular med/supplement regimen?

[PaddockWood]

Not at all. Glad to help however I can.

[Pico_Banana]

On psyllium powder versus pellets, I didn’t see any improvement on pellets. I switched to powder and quickly saw improvement. I get mine from Santa Cruz these days. My mare only gets a cup of hay pellets AM and PM along with her supps, so my routine is that I soak the pellets for 5 minutes in minimal water, add her other supps, then add the psyllium. It turns out to be pretty dry - which is how she prefers it anyway. Too much water and powdered psyllium turns into a paste that is unappetizing to her.

Of course, my other mare happily cleans up any leftovers on days when I use too much water, so YMMV.

[hwake]

I have a decent amount of human-grade psyllium powder at home (I do a lot of gluten-free baking) so I might take a sample to the barn and see if I can make it palatable enough for pony to eat. Do you feed the psyllium both AM and PM?

[Pico_Banana]

Yes, she gets the psyllium both AM and PM.

When she was struggling more this winter, I actually started feeding her 4 “grain” meals a day - one cup pellets, 1/4 cup psyllium powder each. I figured the frequency and increased amount might be helpful. Once things were under control, I went back to breakfast and dinner, both with 1/4 cup psyllium.

According to a Dr, Kellon article, you can go up to a total of 2 cups of psyllium per day. I don’t think I’ve ever done more than 1 cup per day.

[PaddockWood]

Hind Gut Health

Here’s the link to the discussion. It sure worked for my guy. I did buy organic but first went to Kroger and bought what was at the store.