As in ballet dancers. You wouldn’t want them to go all loose and floppy.
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Yes and yes and yes!!! Better than a trainer…
ANd even better than scribing is to scribe for someone in a judge apprenticeship program. LOTS of time for discussion, and often if its a group apprentice session, lots of discussion you’ll be able to hear. If you are lucky enough to know folks on the “judge train”, and you are a good scribe, ask to scribe for them as they move up the letter ladder.
Look for some youtube videos of the shows that have either a running commentary (such as the recent USDF National Championships), or that show the live scoring (I beleive the WEG at Herning last year showed this).
Prepare yourself by reading the directives of the tests, and the definitions of the gaits and movements in the USEF rulebook; remember they were written focused on the warmblood type. Only recently are the gait qualities of the Iberian (and other non-warmbloods) been seen as “adequate”.
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Yes this is called “plyometrics”, fast twitch muscle movements. You’re right, some “tension” is necessary in these spring-like movements that require great strength.
So to me, it’s tension of a loaded, elastic muscle vs rigidity of a frozen, locked joint.
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At the risk of sounding critical, there is a difference between musculature being coiled for action, and tension from unhappiness, tiredness, pain, or over-facing.
As a sport we do have a tendency to ignore some of the more obvious symptoms of an unhappy horse, including mouth and tail action. If it wasn’t so overlooked in sport, there wouldn’t be so much emphasis on tight nosebands, padding on nosebands, and cranks.
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[Quote]“Smurf” was famously used by Capt. Mark Phillips, who said, “Who cares what the smurfs think?!” He’s also the source of “Toughen up, buttercup!” in reference to someone who was upset about her horse being fatally injured on XC."[Quote]
Such a classy man, no wonder he is an ex!
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This is such a strange thread.
It started off as a thread soliciting of comments about the freestyle.
Then, after about post 10, it was as if a different thread, titled “How do I educate my eye for upper level tests” was spliced in.
Then the rest of the thread was a lot of people answering that question. That nobody asked.
Unsolicited advice is almost always thinly disguised criticism.
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Welcome to the internet lol
ETA: It’s pretty clear why the discussion veered off in that direction. @Bluey nailed it with this statement: “ I think when we wonder why a score was higher than we think it should, our first thought should be learning why and educating our eye further.”
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Yup. And totally my fault for taking the bait when I suspected it was exactly this kind of set up.
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Sorry, I edited my post while you were responding. I don’t think it was a set up or bait? Just an interesting discussion about what different people saw, and the major differences between the warmbloods and Iberian types. I loved Bluey’s statement way back upthread: “ I think when we wonder why a score was higher than we think it should, our first thought should be learning why and educating our eye further.”
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I love scribing, and learn a ton from it! One of the most common things I’ve learned is that if you look at all comments on a test, there is an overall theme throughout most tests, and it will usually align with the final comments, but sometimes the judge has a greater issue they want to help you with in their final comments. Also, I love judges who give comments even on high scoring movements, so riders know they have a way to score even higher.
This horse was nowhere near perfect, but there was a lot to like! I agree on the difficulty really being impressive, and the things I saw tended more toward the communication to do those things not being perfect in this environment. That horse was trying his heart out- and so clearly sensitive, that any tiny muscle differences from every day at home were going to show.
Even a 100% does not equal perfect, and I’m ok with both seeing room for improvement and enjoying this ride.
As an aside hopefully not assisting in the derailing of an interesting discussion…
That was a LOT of interpretation of the word “Hmmm!”
Here was the first item posted on the thread seeming to invite response:
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I thought the explanations of the difference between lip flipping and a gaping mouth, and why it didn’t necessarily indicate tension, was very interesting, and also the input from people who had seen it marked down and/or commented on by some judges and not by others was enlightening.
I thought the explanations of the degree of difficulty and how that affected freestyle scoring were helpful too; because it’s not something I have any depth of understanding about.
I thought the suggestion that people with differing opinions needed to scribe more or enroll in the “L” program were more than a little bit patronizing.
I did send the video to my friend who rides/trains FEI and got their perspective, which was more educational and nowhere near as condescending.
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Re:the lips flipping/nose wriggling. I had a quite good judge tell me that it often is a sign of a horse that tries hard and enjoys the work. I was scribing at a time when I was also horse shopping and one horse was like this and the judge actually said if I found one who did this to buy it!
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Erm, discussions meander and veer all the time? Of all of the threads I’ve strange on COTH, this one ranks pretty low 
COTH is so hypercritical at times though. Whether that’s on the topic, not being on the exact topic, or on how people at posting. 
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I would like to buck that trend of thinking that mouth activity is because the horse is “concentrating” or enjoying the work. In my experience a horse’s mouth is active if they are communicating tension or displeasure. Sometimes they can’t do so because of nosebands or other tack choices, so more creative stereotypies show up.
Consider if they would still demonstrate the behavior if there was no noseband, or if they were not being asked to do something physically challenging.
Years ago people said that foam lipstick was desirable and a sign of the horse enjoying the work too. We now know that is not true.
This is a criticism of dressage culture as a whole, not a criticism of the subject video.
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Not sure why you complain, maybe because for once you were in a position you don’t like to be??
This thread is really harmless and was even educating!!! How do you think other people feel if they write about something they think they know about and then COTH reacts like it did in this thread?? (Which was very nice and easy)…. Next time you jump on somebody think about this thread first 
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Yes and it was the conventional wisdom to view foam, which literally requires the horse to mouth around a bit, as indicative of an active, engaged contact. In my experience more educated horses tend to steel their jaw when they are very tense rather than flap their mouths around.
But you can’t see a locked jaw as easily from a judge’s stand, nor can judges 100% of the time make the correct assumption about tension vs engagement unless they know the horse’s previous performance and personality.
At the end of the day, I think the majority of judges try to rate the ride holistically and fairly, and baroque horses are getting a fairer shake. But as with all things, there will always be some bias towards breeds, movement types, personalities, etc.
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Ah! That would be good to actually witness.
As the original thread starter, I merely meant that the ride was something to be considered- especially the good parts. No baiting, no solicitating responses. 'Nuff said.
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Count the number of m’s and include the exclamation point, please.
My late, great Intermediate/CCI2* (now 3*) winning horse was a lip flapper. It worried me very much when he was a 5yo, thinking there was a physical cause. I had him checked by a vet, seen by two dentists, and rode him in a hackamore for a while because I was sure there must be a mouth issue. He flapped in the hackamore, he flapped in every kind of snaffle, with or without a noseband. It wasn’t constant, it wasn’t obnoxious, and as a rider I couldn’t “feel” it in the contact (I just heard it and/or saw it on video). After vet and dentist shrugged and said Don’t Worry, I let it go and just rode the horse.
He was very competitive in the dressage phase; a pure TB who beat WBs regularly and scored in the 20s at Intermediate. Once or twice I had a judge comment on the lip flapping, but I’m not sure it specifically impacted my score. If he had tension or a mistake, the score would reflect and perhaps a comment about the lips may be made. But most often the judges didn’t notice (or at least didn’t say). I had trainers/clinicians comment on it, mostly in a common “Huh, he’s a flapper isn’t he?” but no one made a big deal or tried to change it.
FWIW, this horse did dressage in a KK snaffle with a plain cavesson noseband. No flash, no crank, not uncomfortably tight. He was not one to open his mouth, lock his jaw, or gape… just flap those lips. As suzyq said, it was usually interpreted as a sign of concentration for him, or just something that he did, like tapping your foot or fingers when thinking of an answer to a math problem.
I currently have an OTTB related to that one. He doesn’t flap his lips while riding, but he did it once while receiving a treat in the crossties. I thought it was cute, and reminded me of my beloved lost partner. I taught the new horse to flap his lips on command, for treats. It’s now his preferred method of begging, and it works 90% of the time. 
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