[QUOTE=Houndhill;8071143]
But, true, many of the dogs who have killed babies or children or humans of any age, do have a history of predation upon animals of other species.[/QUOTE]
Somewhat off topic but you can say this about some people too…
Silly neighbours.
Silly cat.
I don’t necessarily think it could be transferred to a child. I just like cats better than dogs. And I couldn’t look at my dog in the same way. That’s not just me – I know we’ve had threads on here before about dog owners that couldn’t deal with their own dog after a kill. You can either deal with it or you can’t – I’m in the “can’t” group. I could own a dog that MIGHT kill a cat but I would never give it that chance. Yes, that means even within my own yard – the dog would not be unsupervised. But I do not expect others to feel the same way.
I like the analogy with the cat. Would you kill your cat because it killed a mouse on the grounds that it might attack your baby next?
If your dog is well socialized with humans, it does not view them as prey. (And yes, you have to make sure they understand about babies because they are different) Whole different situation if you are not talking about a well-treated pet dog.
I just ate a nice piece of pig. Doesn’t mean I am likely to chomp on my human neighbor next! (And there is more of a resemblance…)
We’ve lived on our acreage for almost 16 years and in that time we’ve only gotten 3 barn cats. Not because they didn’t disappear in the first couple years but because my neighbor has provided an endless source of cats as she has no grasp of consequences. Someone offers a cat to her, sure, she’ll take it. It doesn’t matter that all the cats eventually disappear, get killed outright by her dogs or migrate to our barn. And even with a cat door in the hay barn, safe spots in the barn rafters and access to the garage, we lose cats too. The smart ones live a lot longer.
There truly isn’t any way to guarantee the safety of cats from predators unless you keep them indoors. Last fall we lost a barn cat who was at least 12 or 13,and had been on our property since he was a kitten. We had started bringing him into the house when it was too hot or cold as he was starting to show his age. The losses all hurt but it was a real blow when Bert disappeared.
We are eventually going to have to make the decision to get more barn cats or do without. While I can maybe justify bringing in cats that would be put down in a shelter, how can I justify getting an animal that has virtually no chance of dying of natural causes?
[QUOTE=Sannois;8071132]
Oh thank GOD someone else said it!
I am sorry, I would never ever own a dog that killed cats. Nor have I. That kind of pack aggression could be easily turned to a small child. Agree Joz![/QUOTE]
mmmm… I didn’t want to step into this thread because it is a can of worms… but I disagree.
In this situation, these dogs (we can assume 'pack mentality) went after an intruder in their vicinity.
You cannot truly train the prey-drive out of an animal. It is the same for anything - you would not punish a cat for catching a mouse, would you? Growing up, my beloved cat murdered my gerbils :no: it’s just what they do. Lesson learned.
You also would not expect a horse or donkey not to shy away from something strange. It is just instinct. Training can be done to stifle instinct, but it never truly overrides it. The end of the day, a cat is a dog’s prey. There’s no other way about it. Dogs are predators.
OP I am very sorry to hear about your trouble. I am sorry for the cat as well. It was not your fault, nor your dogs. It is what dogs do. Unfortunately I know your guilt…
I have four dogs, all of who I would trust implicitly with children. Implicitly. They do not bite. They are not aggressive to humans. Boy, they are barky when a strange car pulls up the driveway but once a person comes out it is all about the ‘PET ME PET ME PET PET LOVE ME’. Their prey drive is moderate, but they only regard squirrels and other pests as prey.
Guess what? My four are suspected cat-killers. I feel horrible for the cat, and now I do not let my cat free-roam anymore when I am home despite them being puppies when she was a kitten and growing up with her… but the story is, they were found bloody near the scene of the crime and I can only assume they are guilty. They are still great with my cat but I do not leave them unsupervised.
Two of them are fantastic with every other animal under the sun… One used to ‘babysit’ my rats. Eh… the other two… I wouldn’t trust around chicks or baby bunnies… but they do love children.
OP this is a fear i have. i have a fenced acre, 4 ft high chain link and my neighbor got 2 young cats this fall. The male keeps trying to sneak out of her house( he is neutered) and has gotten out a couple times. If the cats jump into my yard, they are going to run for their lives and probably die if my dogs catch them. i have 3 terriers and the smallest at 9 lbs has caught rabbits that are full size. ( idk how they get into my fenced yard, but they get in). it’s not your fault, OP. I do not like cats running loose outside.
When animal shelters advertise dogs to new homes, they often come with a cat-safe label, or not-cat-safe label. That means that even the shelters recognize that some dogs will chase…yet they will offer them for rehoming instead of giving them the death sentence.
We just have to be vigilant to the dangers out there. I go back to my comment that cats are wary creatures and know their escape routes, given a chance to scout the 'hood.
The OP sounds like a very responsible pet owner and this should just be chalked up to a very unfortunate incident.
I have 4 dogs, all live quite happily with my roaming barn cat, even when he comes into the house sometimes. They all will chase squirrels (will kill and eat them if caught) rabbits etc and will chase feral cats that are not “ours” probably would kill them if they caught them. One thing is though my cat acts differently around my dogs, he is comfortable so does not act like prey and run, usually. The feral cats do, that gets my dogs prey drive up, yet one of them who is a might squirrel hunter helped raise 2 bottle kittens that I fostered. He loved those kittens and would bath them etc, but they were “ours” so he knew the difference.
I have lost a cat to two dogs and it was totally our fault for letting the cat outside (he was not usually out at night, but we were all sick in the family and did not realize it) and two dogs came onto our property and attacked him, he had to be euthanized. I was upset with the dogs, but more upset with ourselves for not making sure he was up at night. We tried to make the cat an inside only cat, he would not follow the program unfortunately, he loved hunting too much.
[QUOTE=JoZ;8071200]
I don’t necessarily think it could be transferred to a child. I just like cats better than dogs. And I couldn’t look at my dog in the same way. That’s not just me – I know we’ve had threads on here before about dog owners that couldn’t deal with their own dog after a kill. You can either deal with it or you can’t – I’m in the “can’t” group. I could own a dog that MIGHT kill a cat but I would never give it that chance. Yes, that means even within my own yard – the dog would not be unsupervised. But I do not expect others to feel the same way.[/QUOTE]
I agree. When I got my dog, rehomed from someone else because she needed to be an only dog, I questioned thoroughly her reaction to other species, and I told them that if she ever went for the cats, she would no longer be able to stay. They guaranteed her other-critter safe, and I still watched very closely for the first several months. She loved the cats, and they loved her and found her “pile” interesting to knead and snuggle in. But there is zero question who would have been allowed to stay, dog or cats, if anything happened. I could not live with that.
Sideshoot from the OP, my SIL and brother had a back yard with Brittanys which were used for hunting. New neighbor got chickens. The dog yard was thoroughly fenced and electrified as well, but when several of the chickens flapped over one afternoon, the results were predictable. SIL and brother returned the dead chickens with many apologies (though no financial offers). Neighbor wound up having a chicken fry and inviting them, and neighbor built a coop and chicken yard. I agree that a sincere apology, even when it isn’t technically your fault, carries a lot of weight. Hopefully your neighbors will, too.
[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8070423]
I would suggest you never have a dog with a high prey drive. Some dogs absolutely “generally” will kill cats, especially if the cat runs.[/QUOTE]
I think you and JoZ already agree. She said she’d never keep a dog who killed a cat and you said, “Yeah, don’t get one with a high prey drive.”
I am amazed at the amount of people who think cats should stay indoors. Had they been outdoors more, they would have learned not to become dog fodder.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;8072130]
I am amazed at the amount of people who think cats should stay indoors. Had they been outdoors more, they would have learned not to become dog fodder.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, I think it is fairly accepted that indoor cats live longer. They do need exercise, but they aren’t vulnerable to dangers like cars and predation. I feed a totally outdoor feral cat, and I accept the dangers. I personally prefer ferals for outdoor cats because I think they’re a little wiser to some of the dangers, but outdoor cats do face dangers. Just a few months ago I noticed a little cat hanging around and put some food out in case she was hungry. Eventually she came up to me and when I picked her up, her stomach had been skinned - probably by a wild animal. Luckily for her, she was able to go to our open admission low kill shelter and went into foster care to heal. She was pretty skittish and wary, but a wild animal was able to get her pretty easily. I think it is best for cats to be inside to live a long, healthy life. If people make the choice to allow them to roam, then there are risks that have to be accepted.
If I were you, OP, I’d do what I thought I had to in order to smooth things over with the neighbors. After all, you will have to get along with these people for awhile (if you both own property) and people can be more vicious than animals.
And consider this, too: Your new neighbors are in a tough spot. They don’t want to make an enemy of you right off the bat, but they also probably don’t want to “co-sign” their cat getting dealt an expensive set of injuries and death. They have their pride (and grief) to deal with. Give them a basis for liking you a little bit rather than making you their scapegoat.
Mark my words, if you guys start out on the wrong foot, it will be a long, slow repair of that neighbor relationship. And that will be a PITA for all.
It makes sense to me that their newbie cat got nailed by your dogs on one of it’s first journeys out. That’s just piss-poor luck on everyone’s side. Be sympathetic at first rather than defensive and I think that will go a long way. You can always become a hard ass later if need be. But don’t start there.
Best of luck to you.
[QUOTE=JoZ;8070396]
Because dogs do not, in general, kill cats…[/QUOTE]
SO not true.
Certain breeds of dogs have a very high prey drive. You put afew of those types together, then add a panicking/running/fighting cat to kick those drives into high gear, then mix in the size of a dog vs the size of a cat and VOLIA!! you have a dead or injured cat.
For that matter, a big dog (or two) can injure or kill a cat by accident.
I have heelers and I came home to find one of my own cats dead in the (fenced) backyard. No idea who did the deed, but my guess is that it was a group effort.
BTW, I had never seen any of them show aggression towards the cats before.
[QUOTE=europa;8070453]
Not popular here either…I would not own dogs that kill cats…too much of a liability. Cats are not really containable per se. If dogs will go after cats they will go after other things. I personally just would not do it. I would try my best to mend fences with the neighbor as best that I could.[/QUOTE]
Again, just not true. Cats ARE containable – plenty of people I know keep their cats inside their whole lives.
And no, if a dog goes after a cat that does NOT mean “they will go after other things.”
Unless you mean by “other things” small, furry things that run really fast when you chase them. As others have said, breeds with a high prey drive were BRED to chase (and sometimes kill) small, furry things that run fast.
Do you really think a dog goes “oh, that’s a CAT so I don’t mess with it. But it’s ok to chase/kill a rat or a rabbit or a ferret or some other small vermin that keeps getting into the hen-house” ?
Dogs will often “recognize” the family cat as part of what needs to be protected, or at least, left alone. Some times they don’t.
But strange cats are generally NOT perceived in the same way. IME MOST dogs who encounter a strange cat will chase it if it runs.
OP, sorry for what you are going through, and sorry for the neighbors as well.
I’m not sure any of us can be so certain of what our dogs will or won’t do…I have 2 well behaved, gentle, loving dogs that get along with my cats just fine, but I would NEVER go so far as to guarantee they wouldn’t go for a small animal that came onto our property. They are DOGS!
From what some are writing here, I have 2 donkeys I should get rid of, because I am positive that they would attack and stomp any dogs in their territory (mine included). (But they don’t bother the cats!)
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8071562]
When animal shelters advertise dogs to new homes, they often come with a cat-safe label, or not-cat-safe label. That means that even the shelters recognize that some dogs will chase…yet they will offer them for rehoming instead of giving them the death sentence.
We just have to be vigilant to the dangers out there. I go back to my comment that cats are wary creatures and know their escape routes, given a chance to scout the 'hood.
The OP sounds like a very responsible pet owner and this should just be chalked up to a very unfortunate incident.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever watch a shelter “cat-test” a dog? They use a cat who has (obviously) never been bothered by a dog. The cat sits or walks slowly. The dog is on a leash and is considered “cat safe” if it ignores or doesn’t actively try to kill the cat right then & there.
So what that means is if your cat is super mellow and won’t run & your dog is always on a leash when he/she is around said cat, all will be well.
However try the same test with a frighten or even excited cat who is running or hissing or doing some other tempting behavior, let that dog off the leash & make no intervention at all…and THEN see what happens.
Whole different deal…
BTW…to the OP: I think FOR THE PROTECTION OF YOUR DOGS, you should offer apologies, send flowers or a donation to a cat rescue and (if you can afford it) maybe even kick in some $$ for the vet bill.
None of this is because the event was your fault; the fault obviously lies with the cat owner. But some people can be very vindictive and you don’t want to come home & find one of your dogs poisoned or shot or something.
Be as generous and sympathetic as you can be…in the end it might be best for your dogs.
I think the pint of a shelter labelling a dog cat safe or not, is to warn people to not trust the non-catsafe dog, but the catsafe one may be ok. Not offering any guarantees, but not offering a dog into a cat home that is definitely unsafe.
I think it’s interesting the strange expectations some people have of dogs. Many people keep dogs partially for home protection. Dogs are a great deterrent to burglars, and we praise them for defending their homes and families when bad stuff happens. At the same time, some people seem to expect dogs to just magically turn off the protective, territorial instinct when it suits them. Dogs protect their homes. They know their people and their animal companions, and anything else is an intruder. My dog is fantastic with our cats, never even a hint that he’d try to harm them. He does chase strange cats out of our yard, because they’re intruders and he’s defending his territory. It’s not even an inside/outside thing. One of our cats does go outside, and she and the dog hang out together in the yard (the other two don’t go outside because unlike our old lady, they can’t be relied upon to stay in the fenced yard). There’s a huge Russian Blue in the neighborhood who just won’t stay out of our yard, and our dog and cat will chase him out together if he shows up while they’re both outside.
Humans have raised and trained dogs for thousands of years to defend us and our property. To expect them to just turn that off because the intruder happens to be someone’s pet isn’t even a little bit reasonable.
