I’ve never bred for colour but I’m helping a friend search for a stallion with the hopes of increasing the chances for a buckskin. The mare is a Palomino with primarily Selle Francais jumper bloodlines. So…to make a long story short, who are the homozygous bay stallions out there?
You’d be looking for a homozygous dark stallion who carries two copies of agouti. I think you’d be VERY hard pressed to find warmblood stallions out there who are tested for Agouti, or even to make any guesses based on offspring, but your friend can certainly have her mare tested.
Link to further explanation/test: http://www.horsetesting.com/Agouti.htm
The site also has a neat calculator that will let you play with different possibilities: http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
Based on the calculator just using homozygous bay gives him a 46% chance of Buckskin, which is about as good a chance as he’s going to get with a palomino mare. 
Ralando II is homozygous Bay - EEAA - he has a facebook page and you can contact them. I remember him because we are expecting a bay foal from him in June. I’ve seen other stallions whose listing say they cannot produce chesnut but they may not have tested for agouti. It’s cheap to do if you have a stallion owner willing to send in some hairs.
My stallion Tatendrang is homozygous bay - tested EE/AA. And he was bred to two buckskin mares this year (due in a couple of months). It all just depends on what you are looking for (in terms of discipline, breed, conformation/gaits etc).
[QUOTE=Galileo1998;7375227]
I’ve never bred for colour but I’m helping a friend search for a stallion with the hopes of increasing the chances for a buckskin. The mare is a Palomino with primarily Selle Francais jumper bloodlines. So…to make a long story short, who are the homozygous bay stallions out there?[/QUOTE]
Your best bet at getting a bay would be to breed to a stallion who is homozygous for Black AND Agouti (EE/AA). When bred to a palomino mare, you would have a 50% chance of buckskin or 50% chance of bay.
Obviously, those odds would increase even further if you bred to a single dilute (palomino, buckskin or smoky black) or double dilute stallion (cremello, perlino or smoky cream)…but then there would be a chance of also producing a double dilute foal.
Rolando II? I vaguely remember seeing that he was homozygous bay… maybe I was wrong?
[QUOTE=Galileo1998;7375290]
Based on the calculator just using homozygous bay gives him a 46% chance of Buckskin, which is about as good a chance as he’s going to get with a palomino mare. :)[/QUOTE]
If the stallion is EEAA, then it doesn’t matter the mare’s agouti status - any way you slice it, it’s a 50/50 chance of buckskin or bay.
The only way the odds start changing is if brown is in the mix, so if you want to start looking at those odds, you’d have to go here
http://colorgenetics.info/equine/foal-coat-color-calculator
If Ralando is indeed brown, he’s AtAt. But without testing the mare you don’t know, and if any “homozygous bay” stallion you look at doesn’t have a brown test through Pet DNA, or offspring to prove what his agouti status is, then the mare’s agouti will make a difference. And, if the stallion is AtAt or AAt, then the mare’s Agouti makes a difference.
But, if all you’re looking to do is get bay/brown, or buckskin/smoky brown, then it doesn’t matter who’s actually brown, or carrying brown, only that one of the 2 are not aa.
So, you could test the mare, and if she’s AA, then all the stallion has to be is EE, which opens up a lot more possibilities.
I’m fine with a 50/50 chance of Buckskin or bay. I’m even fine with a remote possibility of black or smokey black. What I want to do is simply remove the possibility of chestnut or palomino or a double dilute from the mix.
So yes, there’s Ralando, there’s Tatendrag. Who else?
Because the mare is palomino, which means she is a chestnut with one copy of the cream gene (she is a single dilute), she can pass on a copy of her chestnut gene to her foal. As a result, a bay homozygous Agouti stallion is NOT what you want to be breeding to a palomino mare of you do not want a palomino or chestnut foal, as chestnut and palomino are still possible colors when crossing a palomino mare to a bay homozygous Agouti stallion. The only breeding that will work to eliminate chestnut or palomino out of the mix is to breed to a bay or black homozygous black stallion. There would be no chance of palomino or chestnut with that cross.
As Daventry stated you must go with a homozygous BLACK tested stallion. A bay stallion can be homozygous black, according to Animal Genetics color calculator.
Homozygous BLACK will still give you 4 possibilities:
25% smoky black (appears black, but is a dilute with the cream gene)
25% black
25% bay
25% buckskin.
It is still 50% dilute (smoky black is a dilute), 50% solid color.
If you breed to a bay who is tested to be homozygous black, he will then overrule the blonde palomino and the percentages are the same as breeding to a true black as stated above.
If you breed to a bay who is homozygous Agouti but possibly only heterozygous for black (in other words, carrying a red gene), then you will get:
25% palomino
25% buckskin
25% bay
25% black
Whether you breed to BAY or BLACK you must use a stallion who is Homozygous Black because he will overrule her. The Agouti is irrelevant in achieving the buckskin/bay goal.
Assuming you pair the mare to a Homozygous Black stallion:
If the palomino mare is pure non-Agouti (aa), then your only choices are black or smoky black. Both appear black, but the smoky is a cream gene.
If she is Heterozygous Agouti - you get smoky black, black, bay, buckskin 25% each chance.
If SHE is Homozygous Agouti you get 2 choices only: Buckskin or Bay, 50/50.
Whether you breed to BAY or BLACK you must use a stallion who is Homozygous Black. The Agouti is irrelevant in achieving the buckskin/bay goal.
The Agouti gene is needed to create the buckskin. The dam may or may not carry it so it would be better if the stallion was homozygous bay or at least bay. Breeding to a black stallion to create a buckskin relies on the mare carrying the agouti gene.
Daventry gave the best suggestion for the highest chance of what you want. Also as suggested you need the homo black genetics if you do not want a chestnut but you also should breed to a bay horse for the highest chance of buckskin (with the only other result being bay).
If you tested the mare, you would know if she carried the Agouti gene. If she does you could go with a black stallion - Freestyle
Also ask about Landkönig, there is a lot of bay and black offspring.
It seems to have been assumed from the start that the use of “homozygous bay” means EEAA, which covers the issue of not getting a red-based color.
And yes, testing the mare makes it easier to figure out what the stallion needs to be. If she’s AA, then the stallion only has to be EE, doesn’t matter at that point if he’s black, bay, or brown
Edelweiss de Bonce is probably EEAA. Although not tested, every single one of his foals is bay. Kathy could tell you more.
Hotline is homozygous dark, not black. Homozygous black, in addition to those already mentioned, is Diamond Stud.
Gatsby is EE, though is Ata
Rosenthal - he’s black though so you might get smokey black, depending on what the mare has.
Long, but good article that includes information on why the OP would care about whether the stallion is brown rather than bay if buckskin is the goal: http://www.diomics.com/DIOMICS/PetDNA-Equine-Info_files/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf .
Schroeder is bay and I would bet that 95% of his babies have been bay as well. He is homozygous for dark, so will not produce red…so there is a small chance you will get black, but more likely bay or if the foal gets one copy of dilute from mom, then buckskin.
I bred my chestnut Weltmeyer mare to him and got an AWESOME filly. She won her foal inspection, finished 12th in the Nation that year. She will be three in the spring and such sold to a dressage pro to be aimed at that YHC.
Super gaits…excellent walk & canter and a trot that is o/o this world. Smart too! Abit opinionated, but I’m betting that came from mom.
Schroeder himself is doing great and Kathy is wonderful to work with. Will definitely be repeating the breeding!
This video was taken this past summer, so she was about 2+yrs old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOqb8HNvO7g
[QUOTE=rodawn;7375782]
If SHE is Homozygous Agouti you get 2 choices only: Buckskin or Bay, 50/50.[/QUOTE]
OK, I’m confused. If the mare is a palomino, how could she be homozygous Agouti? Wouldn’t she be bay?
