Homozygous Bay

[JB]

[QUOTE=eaconlee;7376528]
Long, but good article that includes information on why the OP would care about whether the stallion is brown rather than bay if buckskin is the goal: http://www.diomics.com/DIOMICS/PetDNA-Equine-Info_files/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf .[/QUOTE]

Yes, but given the added info, it’s much less an issue about buckskin vs smoky brown, as it is about simply not anything red, and a preference for not black or smoky black

It’s also not just about the stallion being bay and not brown. He can be bay, and be “homozgyous for bay”, ie EEAA, but still be a brown carrier, ie AAt, which gives the chance of smoky brown as well.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7376626]
OK, I’m confused. If the mare is a palomino, how could she be homozygous Agouti? Wouldn’t she be bay?[/QUOTE]
Agouti has no effect on red pigment, ee, which is what the pali mare is

All red-based (ee) colors can be aa, Aa, or AA, and you’ll never know by looking at them.

[alliekat]

[QUOTE=JB;7376632]
Agouti has no effect on red pigment, ee, which is what the pali mare is

All red-based (ee) colors can be aa, Aa, or AA, and you’ll never know by looking at them.[/QUOTE]
And boy did I learn that when I got Disaronno’s test back LOL

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=JB;7376632]
Agouti has no effect on red pigment, ee, which is what the pali mare is

All red-based (ee) colors can be aa, Aa, or AA, and you’ll never know by looking at them.[/QUOTE]

Yep, JB is correct. Our chestnut Section D Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap is aa, as is our palomino Section B mare. We also have a chestnut Welsh/TB cross mare who was just tested homozygous Agouti (AA).

[Kyzteke]

Learn something new every day…

So what the OP wants is a stallion who is homozygous for dark (meaning he will NOT produce red), but carries the Agouti gene?

[JB]

She wants to maximize the odds of having bay or buckskin. The only way to guarantee that is to have someone be EE (to not get anything red-based) and someone to be AA (to not have anything black or smoky black).

Fairly often that is called “homozygous bay”, meaning that, other modifiers aside, that horse will always produce a bay.

EEAA on EE?? or Ee?? or ee?? will always produce E?A? - bay

**caveat - interchange bay and brown, or use them both, depending on the agouti status, I’m just using bay to simplify things

[JB]

With a palomino there is no way to guarantee buckskin. You bring in the chance at 50/50 by using an EEAA stallion (or EE?? if the mare is AA). You could increase the odds of buckskin by using a EEAACrCr stallion, to 75%, but you’re also bringing in the 25% chance of producing a double dilute, which she doesn’t want, and in the process you eliminate the odds of bay.

[NorthHillFarm]

[QUOTE=eaconlee;7376528]
Long, but good article that includes information on why the OP would care about whether the stallion is brown rather than bay if buckskin is the goal: http://www.diomics.com/DIOMICS/PetDNA-Equine-Info_files/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf .[/QUOTE]

Wow, that explains a lot- thanks for the link! Not to derail but I had two of my mares tested at UC Davis- both I suspected as being homozygous for black points…
A bay mare that came back EE/AA. She is currently in foal to a cremello and I thought my only option was buckskin but I guess that smokey brown is possible if she carries brown? Any way to tell if she carries brown (other than DNA test)?
And a black mare (or so I thought!) that came back EE/Aa. I couldn’t figure out why this mare didn’t look bay (see link below for a pic) with this test result but I think you may have given me the answer…I think she is a seal brown
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151530964777042&set=a.10151530961632042.1073741827.238104372041&type=3&theater

OK back to OP, sorry for derailing…

[JB]

Unless the bay mare has had a brown foal by a black stallion, you don’t know if she carries brown. I’m assuming it’s the Romancing Rio mare? She does look bay, but she’s just odd enough I’d wonder if her AA is really AtAt. If you REALLY want to know you’d have to test her.

and yes, the other mare is definitely seal brown - one of those who looks quite black, at least until put up against a true black Her genetics are really EEAta

[Kyzteke]

Sorry to the OP, but can someone post some pics of “smokey brown?”

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7376742]
Sorry to the OP, but can someone post some pics of “smokey brown?”[/QUOTE]

Although not DNA color tested, as she sold before the At gene was discovered, I always suspected this mare was smoky brown, not buckskin, long before they knew there was a brown gene. She has brown points, not black. (Sire was a palomino Section B Welsh Pony and dam was a bay TB)

[Galileo1998]

[QUOTE=NorthHillFarm;7376698]
Wow, that explains a lot- thanks for the link! Not to derail but I had two of my mares tested at UC Davis- both I suspected as being homozygous for black points…
A bay mare that came back EE/AA. She is currently in foal to a cremello and I thought my only option was buckskin but I guess that smokey brown is possible if she carries brown? Any way to tell if she carries brown (other than DNA test)?
And a black mare (or so I thought!) that came back EE/Aa. I couldn’t figure out why this mare didn’t look bay (see link below for a pic) with this test result but I think you may have given me the answer…I think she is a seal brown
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151530964777042&set=a.10151530961632042.1073741827.238104372041&type=3&theater

OK back to OP, sorry for derailing…[/QUOTE]

No problem. I used to own Romancing Rio.

[JB]

Yeager GF is smoky brown
http://www.blacktreefarm.com/pages/yeagergf.html

Smoky brown is a lot like smoky black in that it very often isn’t obvious, unlike buckskin where it’s not often NOT obvious.

[eaconlee]

DNA test is the only way to know for sure if you have a brown instead of bay or black. Pet DNA Service is the only place that does it and it is $60 and is done from a few mane hairs. http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/equine-testing/ .

[NorthHillFarm]

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;7376788]
No problem. I used to own Romancing Rio.[/QUOTE]

Small world! I am hoping she’ll give me a keeper filly this year

[Galileo1998]

[QUOTE=NorthHillFarm;7377196]
Small world! I am hoping she’ll give me a keeper filly this year :)[/QUOTE]

I bred the Westporte filly that she had and most of the pictures taken by Draygonfyne Design are from when she was with me. She is the kindest, sweetest mare ever.

[Kinsella]

Ralando II is indeed tested by UC Davis to be homozygous for black and for agouti - in laymens’ terms, he can only contribute bay to the color equation. Bummer for me because I love chestnut!

[JB]

I would love to see his Agouti test done at Pet DNA I wouldn’t be shocked if he came back as actually bay, but I slightly lean towards him being brown.

Any chance you could swing that?

He’d be a great one to add to the list of “bay or brown?” horses, and he’d go even further towards proving that AtAt browns are lighter than Ata browns (if he’s indeed brown).

[Kinsella]

[QUOTE=JB;7378818]
I would love to see his Agouti test done at Pet DNA I wouldn’t be shocked if he came back as actually bay, but I slightly lean towards him being brown.

Any chance you could swing that?

He’d be a great one to add to the list of “bay or brown?” horses, and he’d go even further towards proving that AtAt browns are lighter than Ata browns (if he’s indeed brown).[/QUOTE]

Sure, I’ll do it. Who do I contact for the tests? I’ll happily send out his UC Davis results to anyone that wants to see them. (If I could post pics here I would post it)

[JB]

That would be SO awesome!

You just have to send a new set of hairs here
http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/equine-testing/

Tell them the horse is AA, you just need to know if either or both of those are At

We believe you on the EEAA It’s just that anybody other than Pet DNA looks for anything not-a on the Agouti location, and if they see not-a, then it’s put down as A. They cannot distinguish between A (bay) and At (brown), only that it’s not “a”