Homozygous Bay

[Sheila_A]

Thanks, JB. I think I may test my buckskin mare. She gets very sooty certain times of the year and I have always wondered but did not know who had the test.

To the OP, Sagnol and Freestyle at Dreamscape Farm are both homozygous for black, Freestyle is black and I believe Sagnol can produce black but neither will produce red. Landkonig is also homozygous for black, not sure about agouti but he is bay. I started a thread a few years ago asking for homozygous black stallions if you want to search for it. I got some very good responses. I did not care about agouti because the mare I was searching for was AA so the agouti status of the stallion would not make a difference in her case.

Good luck to your friend with whatever she decides.

[eaconlee]

[QUOTE=JB;7378818]
I would love to see his Agouti test done at Pet DNA I wouldn’t be shocked if he came back as actually bay, but I slightly lean towards him being brown.

Any chance you could swing that?

He’d be a great one to add to the list of “bay or brown?” horses, and he’d go even further towards proving that AtAt browns are lighter than Ata browns (if he’s indeed brown).[/QUOTE]

My AtAt mare is quite dark - here’s a pic of her at her lightest. With winter hair she looks black except for her muzzle. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=320969871376366&set=pb.114365232036832.-2207520000.1390101136.&type=3&theater

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=JB;7376993]
Yeager GF is smoky brown
http://www.blacktreefarm.com/pages/yeagergf.html

Smoky brown is a lot like smoky black in that it very often isn’t obvious, unlike buckskin where it’s not often NOT obvious.[/QUOTE]

Interesting! I know they originally promoted him as a buckskin and I just thought he was a smutty/shaded buckskin.

I’m beginning to think some of these “newly discovered” colors may explain some of the REALLY WEIRD colors we see in the Akhal Teke breed…

[ladyj79]

Yeager is listed as Ee/Aa/nCr, whereas smokey brown is E_ At__[no A] CrCr.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7380910]
Yeager is listed as Ee/Aa/nCr, whereas smokey brown is E_ At__[no A] CrCr.[/QUOTE]

Smoky brown is actually Ee/At/nCr. (figured you didn’t catch your error on CrCr, which means double dilute.

I’m guessing they haven’t updated his webpage for awhile.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=NorthHillFarm;7376698]
Wow, that explains a lot- thanks for the link! Not to derail but I had two of my mares tested at UC Davis- both I suspected as being homozygous for black points…
A bay mare that came back EE/AA. She is currently in foal to a cremello and I thought my only option was buckskin but I guess that smokey brown is possible if she carries brown? Any way to tell if she carries brown (other than DNA test)?
And a black mare (or so I thought!) that came back EE/Aa. I couldn’t figure out why this mare didn’t look bay (see link below for a pic) with this test result but I think you may have given me the answer…I think she is a seal brown
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151530964777042&set=a.10151530961632042.1073741827.238104372041&type=3&theater

OK back to OP, sorry for derailing…[/QUOTE]

Yes that mare is a seal brown. And yes there is a possibility of smokey brown if the mare is carrying At. If that is a problem then the breeder should test to be sure.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=Daventry;7376760]
Although not DNA color tested, as she sold before the At gene was discovered, I always suspected this mare was smoky brown, not buckskin, long before they knew there was a brown gene. She has brown points, not black. (Sire was a palomino Section B Welsh Pony and dam was a bay TB)[/QUOTE]

She looks buckskin to me, the points on a brown are not brown, they are black. A seal brown is mostly black so only the parts that show up as red/tan on a brown will dilute on a brown buckskin. That leads to a variety of shades but unless this mare is a big sun fader she looks sooty buckskin to me. Here are a couple of known brown/buckskins:

http://www.morgancolors.com/robbisuescassanova.jpg

Go down to Devine Gunsmoke:
http://www.morgancolors.com/buckskin.htm

Mare on left is brown (dam), daughter is brown buckskin:

http://www.morgancolors.com/buckskin.htm

Of course the black areas are subject to sun fading as are any black or brown horses

[JB]

[QUOTE=summerhorse;7381625]
She looks buckskin to me, the points on a brown are not brown, they are black. A seal brown is mostly black so only the parts that show up as red/tan on a brown will dilute on a brown buckskin.[/QUOTE]

Browns can have brown or black points, they just happen to have black more often than not

And Daventry, I agree, very likely smoky brown

[ladyj79]

Yeager is about five minutes away from me. I guess I could go knock on Anne’s door.

I’m interested whether you think she improperly listed his genetic results, or think he wasn’t tested?

[JB]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7380910]
Yeager is listed as Ee/Aa/nCr, whereas smokey brown is E_ At__[no A] CrCr.[/QUOTE]

that’s because he wasn’t tested at Pet DNA.

There is absolutely zero doubt he’s smoky brown.

His test results ARE correct for being tested anywhere else. Anyone not Pet DNA will see brown (At) as bay or “bay” (A)

[ladyj79]

I’m confused. Are you saying that there is only one company capable of successfully “reading” genotypes for color? Or are you saying others, which are often Universities, are capable but misreporting or maybe just oversimplifying?

[JB]

There is only 1 company, Pet DNA Services of AZ, who has the test for brown.

Yes.

Everyone else who looks for “a”, and does not see it, “sees” A. Only Pet DNA can see At.

UC-Davis is not capable, at this point, of distinguishing A from At. Nor is Animal Genetics or anyone else (at least in the US, I don’t know about anyone overseas, though I think Pet DNA is the ONLY one, anywhere, who has the test for At).

[ladyj79]

Very interesting! If I cared about breeding for color, I’d definitely want the most accurate test for all horses involved. Thanks for the info.

[JB]

In some cases, it’s not necessary to test with Pet DNA, as offspring, or parentage, proves the agouti status.

But in some, and probably most cases, the phenotype alone doesn’t tell the story, or the parentage doesn’t tell the full story.