Homozygous silver stallion - Europe?

[nu5ha]

@JB

Since the OP’s mare is homozygous black (but no idea if she IS black, or is bay/brown), we know the foal would be black-based, which is good - Silver doesn’t present on red-based colors.

But what that black silver, or bay/brown silver would look like, is entirely in the air, and largely based on how well the chosen breed expresses Silver. As I pointed out earlier, the Silver in the QH lines is pretty subdued. It can be very subdued in Morgans too. RMH? Loud. Look at Platino above - his Silver comes from his Welsh side, where silver tends to be very obvious, but can also be quite muted. Platino doesn’t have a “silver dapple” body, and his mane and tail, the real indicators he’s silver, are “muted”. It’s obvious to me, but to others his mane and tail might just look bleached.

If the OP wants an obvious in your face Silver, s/he needs to buy one

Was just going to say why not buy at least you know what you are getting. Not for me to decide though.
Thank you for clarifying, very interesting think I will do a little research into color genes.

[solstince]

@nu5ha

Either way I wouldn’t go with a teke, not because I dont like them, grew up with them, uncle still has plenty of them. Still ride them when I got back to Moscow. But too many variables with them. A lot of people who have ridden them love them, but realistic they are not ammy friendly horses.

Like I said im not good with color genes at all, im not a breeder of color, actually not a breeder at all. Wonder if you do mix that ZZ gene with a tb of OPs coloring what would turn out? Sliver as she wanted? or is that not realistic?

This is rather interesting.

To answer your question, ZZ matched with anything will of course result in a silver carrier. And, it will result in a silver phenotype if the foal is black based. However like JB pointed out, the phenotype varies greatly in terms of the expression. Some bay silver or black silver horses look essentially normal but with ‘dusted’ manes or highlights. Others have a full on shocking white mane. A lot are in between!
Since RMF Mister Risky Boy is a RMH and has a lot of expression of the gene (black body white mane) he’d actually be a good choice potentially, and he might even be EE, which would then mean it doesn’t matter what the mares is (as long as non-grey), as even if mare was chestnut the resulting foal would be black silver or bay silver.

[solstince]

@JB

Since the OP’s mare is homozygous black (but no idea if she IS black, or is bay/brown), we know the foal would be black-based, which is good - Silver doesn’t present on red-based colors.

But what that black silver, or bay/brown silver would look like, is entirely in the air, and largely based on how well the chosen breed expresses Silver. As I pointed out earlier, the Silver in the QH lines is pretty subdued. It can be very subdued in Morgans too. RMH? Loud. Look at Platino above - his Silver comes from his Welsh side, where silver tends to be very obvious, but can also be quite muted. Platino doesn’t have a “silver dapple” body, and his mane and tail, the real indicators he’s silver, are “muted”. It’s obvious to me, but to others his mane and tail might just look bleached.

If the OP wants an obvious in your face Silver, s/he needs to buy one

In general I agree with you! But if someone is really set on silver, keep in mind there are very few out there to buy that would be remotely close to be classed as a ‘sporthorse’. And in terms of buying one with Thoroughbred blood…well, in the UK/Europe I’ve seen exactly two half Thoroughbred silver horses in my life, anywhere on market or otherwise. And one was one I myself bred (by a KWPN stallion out of my TB mare) and the other one I bought (half Comtois/half TB).

[JB]

@solstince

In general I agree with you! But if someone is really set on silver, keep in mind there are very few out there to buy that would be remotely close to be classed as a ‘sporthorse’.

I agree, but the OP said s/he wants “No special purpose, just general trail riding and some basic arena work,” There are enough Silver Morgans, silver RMH, even silver Gypsy Vanners (which tend to be very expressive) to do basic ridden work, and the Morgan can do almost anything.

And in terms of buying one with Thoroughbred blood…well, in the UK/Europe I’ve seen exactly two half Thoroughbred silver horses in my life, anywhere on market or otherwise. And one was one I myself bred (by a KWPN stallion out of my TB mare) and the other one I bought (half Comtois/half TB).

Sure - the breeds, or lines within those breeds, that carry silver don’t tend to be commonly crossed with TBs.

I’m curious - how was your Comtois/TB? The Comtois is such a “squat body builder” compared to a TB :lol:

[solstince]

@JB

I agree, but the OP said s/he wants “No special purpose, just general trail riding and some basic arena work,” There are enough Silver Morgans, silver RMH, even silver Gypsy Vanners (which tend to be very expressive) to do basic ridden work, and the Morgan can do almost anything.

Sure - the breeds, or lines within those breeds, that carry silver don’t tend to be commonly crossed with TBs.

I’m curious - how was your Comtois/TB? The Comtois is such a “squat body builder” compared to a TB :lol:

Ah, ok- well by that description I think maybe literally any breed could work! But still not super common to find one coming on the market in EU. In the UK, there’s exactly one silver Morgan stallion standing (I think). No silver AQHAs at the moment, pretty sure. 3-4 silver RMH stallions that I know of!

My TB/Comtois mare is actually incredibly well put together, great movement, excellent jump, perfect temperament etc etc. She looks a bit PRE actually. She definitely can be classed under ‘crosses that sometimes go perfect but often don’t’. Brave to do the cross, but I was happy to buy the result of it going well! I’ve actually known plenty of draft/TB crosses that are amazing horses that stay sound and doing a sport job well into old age. But I suppose for all the great ones I’ve known there were some not fit for purpose I wasn’t exposed to…

[JB]

@solstince thanks! You are right that there are a lot of draft x light horse crosses that are very nice. Certain draft breeds - Percheron, Clydesdale - have historically been great crosses on certain light horses, such as TB, Arabian, Morgan, ASB, and a few others, of course assuming quality stock, and the right body types. I agree a Comtois x TB isn’t what I’d do on purpose, but it sounds like you got a good one!

[solstince]

@JB

@solstince thanks! You are right that there are a lot of draft x light horse crosses that are very nice. Certain draft breeds - Percheron, Clydesdale - have historically been great crosses on certain light horses, such as TB, Arabian, Morgan, ASB, and a few others, of course assuming quality stock, and the right body types. I agree a Comtois x TB isn’t what I’d do on purpose, but it sounds like you got a good one!

There’s also a decent variety of the Comtois horses you see in UK! Some are 15.2-16hh, leggier and leaner, riding types, and some of these are quite nice not crossed out just as riding horses. But don’t see as many of them, just the odd one here or there. Those would make a good cross to TB potentially. For my mare, I have no information on the Comtois stallion, other than his breed…so I have no idea! She’s unregistered breeding, but they are likely telling the truth, as she had to get that silver gene somewhere, and very much looks like a draft x light crossing.

[solstince]

Update- when this post was originally made, there didn’t exist any homozygous silver sporthorse stallions in Europe (or probably anywhere). (As discussed in thread above, there were/are homozygous silver Rocky Mountain Horses that were good jumpers and threw good sport stock to right mare, but nothing with warmblood blood). In 2020 three homozygous silver colts were born in Europe (half KWPN). Not sure which of them will mature into proper stallion prospects, but all very nice colts, two are grandsons of Goodtimes and all are out of sport type (non-warmblood) mares.

Also, I know it doesn’t have anything to do with ZZ stallions, but for those reading this thread that just searched for the gene in general, might be interested: there is now one pure KWPN silver sporthorse stallion in the USA, not standing yet but think owner has plans to get him approved. Only noteworthy because he is I believe the first pure warmblood silver stallion in USA, or maybe even fist pure warmblood silver horse of any gender.

[summerhorse]

For what the OP wanted I would think one of the ZZ Qh stallions (the link was above or a link above lead to the page) would suit a TB. You’d get a registerable horse too. We all think we can give them a home forever but Sh*t happens and that is not always possible as much as we would like to. So it helps to give a prospective foal every chance of being a desirable horse. The silver Morgans are nice but seem very old type and that is pretty far from most TB conformation. Mixing 2 dissimilar breeds can work or can make a mess. But it would certainly be a lot easier to just go buy one on the ground!

[BrendaJane]

Icelandics are quite common on the continent with a large following.
However, I am under the impression that they do not cross well with other breeds.
There is a small offshoot, Aegidienberger, which is a Latin American gaited breed crossed with Icelandics, I am not sure how far the breed has come, the cross is a mere 40 years or so old.

A better choice would be a Welsh pony IMO. The cross with TB is a proven one.

I seem to remember that Barbs also carry the gene, but I am not sure ATM.
There are also not a lot of stallions in the EU.

[solstince]

BrendaJane- If the OP had been open to heterozygous stallions, likely KWPN would potentially make more sense than a Welsh or Icelandic as the result would be horse size (though Welsh x TB is indeed a proven athletic mix). Or a heterozygous Rocky Mountain as many of them a bigger/used for sporthorse breeding.

(I post this for other readers of the thread, not the OP, as in one of their comments the OP made it clear they’d researched probably close to all publicly available horse-sized silver stallions in EU of various breeds, and was totally set on homozygous not heterozygous. If OP comes back to thread, they can PM me for contact info on the ones I know potentially that will be publically standing in EU 2023)

summerhorse- re: Morgan x TB crosses, I’ve known a few, and even used to ride one, that was a top level eventer. I think the key is being careful to match types, but it can be tricky with those two breeds it’s true…
No ZZ Quarter Horse stallions are avail to EU yet

[BrendaJane]

Breeding for color alone is a dangerous proposition.

[solstince]

Goes without saying, no?

IMO, breeding a mare to a suitable stallion where both are proven, sound, healthy and of complimentary types, is not an issue if the stallion is any color, homozygous or otherwise. Certainly there are a lot of people breeding any old thing to any old thing (no colour considerations), or even using a ‘proven’ stallion that actually is unsuitable for their mare or not likely to throw what they need for a given purpose…a lot of different ways people breed is ‘dangerous’, but so is judging someone making an assumption they are only breeding off of one factor when they may consider that factor only as one part of a whole picture.

Someone asking about the existence of stallions that are homozygous for any colour they want does not mean they will use them indiscriminately. It just means they want to know OF the stallion, perhaps to consider for their mare to see if the stallion is suitable (or keep in mind for future mares that might be).

[nicetree]

@solstince

In 2020 three homozygous silver colts were born in Europe (half KWPN). Not sure which of them will mature into proper stallion prospects, but all very nice colts, two are grandsons of Goodtimes and all are out of sport type (non-warmblood) mares.

Oh thats interesting! Where are they born in Europe? Do you know?

[JB]

@solstince

there is now one pure KWPN silver sporthorse stallion in the USA

Who is he?

What do you mean “pure” warmblood? Do you just mean he’s actually by and out of registered WB parents, as opposed to, for example, by a WB stallion and out of a QH mare?

[solstince]

He’s a SWB by Ironman H, he’s not approved/standing yet so not sure his owner wants me to put his name on a public forum! I can post back if/when he’s approved though?

Yes, exactly both parents approved main book, several generations back, no other ‘funky’ blood

[solstince]

FYI, years later, to update this thread, there is now a homozygous silver sporthorse stallion standing in Europe. He’s not pure warmblood, but is a graded stallion and a Goodtimes grandson.

There are also numerous heterozygous silver (pure) warmblood stallions standing in Europe- including a 1.4m Grade A showjumper stallion, Prix St Georges stallion, and a Grand Prix dressage stallion (and many other silver warmblood stallions that are not as accomplished to such a high level)

Still only one silver warmblood stallion in NA.

[solstince]

Further update. Very likely the first homozygous silver purebred warmblood colt in the world born in France. Sire is out of a Chin Chin mare

[solstince]

Only homozygous silver sporthorse stallion standing in the world currently: Zircon IV TAC

Bred in UK, standing in Belgium

[Willesdon]

Zircon IV TAC registered AES, Black silver, born 2020 apparently WB x PRE but the various pedigrees online aren’t clear on registration and, confusingly, there is a stallion “Zircon” which is largely Italian bred.