Honest question: why no lead changes?

[arlosmine]

This truly isn’t a bashing thread…just curious, and interested in the perspective of the sport’s participants.

What is the consensus on lead changes in the stadiom phase of eventing? I’ve now been asked by many people why the event riders frquently do not do changes on course in stadium: the horses may land the lead over a fence…but if not, they continue in either the wrong lead or cross canter, frequently with no attempt to re-organize and trot through a change.

They ask (and now I do): why would one go through turns on the wrong lead when it presents an out-of-balance horse to a fence? Why not fix it? Through the trot, or a change? Why do eventers seem to not train the changes when it makes jumping so much better?

I evented years ago, and remember that changes seemed to be regarded as a happy accident. Since I started out in hunters, I would always at least trot a change if the horse was green, and ask for a change if one was possible. Cantering through a turn on the wrong lead would mess up the approach to the next fence…I have teaching dressage for a long time, and now I’m delving back into hunter-land, where changes are considered standard issue, and many of my new hunter students have expressed mystification.

So:
Thoughts?

Is this a regional thing? Do riders in your area do changes in stadium as a rule?

Are there just so many more skills to cover in eventing that lead changes don’t make it to the “A” list?

[baxtersmom]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702093]

Are there just so many more skills to cover in eventing that lead changes don’t make it to the “A” list?[/QUOTE]

Basically.
This question does come up semi-annually around here…

[17handponyrider]

Because we need to provide a market for all those hunter horse fails with tough lead changes or no lead changes. I mean how many times does a horse became an eventing prospect on this one attribute.

[jen-s]

I grew up riding hunters and every short stirrup kiddo can step out and kick in the corners to get the lead (although auto changes are pretty mandatory in hunter ponies/horses). The lack of changes baffled me too for a while, but the more I dabble in dressage, I see trainers waiting later to teach changes and a bigger emphasis on correct changes. I think some of that “wait until you can do it right” attitude carries over.

[jen-s]

[QUOTE=17handponyrider;7702127]
I mean how many times does a horse became an eventing prospect on this one attribute.[/QUOTE]

BWAHAHAHA!!! So true!

[CindyCRNA]

My trainer will yell “change leads” at me in jumping lessons. We are quite green but I can tell she jumps better in the correct lead.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Most of my horses DO flying lead changes when jumping but it isn’t something that I drill…and if not, I will often do a simple change if it is need to keep them balanced. But the reality is we are NOT judged on it. And a 3 foot fence is not a big fence. Most horses can easliy jump it out of a cross canter or counter canter.

I think if you watch most rounds you will see more changes than not. But again…unlike the hunters where if you don’t have a change you will not place EVEN if you horse otherwise balanced…it isn’t a critical element for an event horse.

You will see FAR more focus on BALANCE. So a rider who has a sloppy round with a horse unbalanced…whether on the correct lead OR incorrect will get more of a talking to by their coach than a rider who while the horse may not change, keeps them balanced through the turn and coming forward to the fence.

Different priorities…although similar. The REASON you have changes in show hunters was to show off a horse that KEEPs its own balance easily. It then has evolved into its own sort of thing…rather then the focus still being on balance alone.

[arlosmine]

Being primarily a dressage trainer, I “get” the waiting to teach changes correctly thing…in a dressage horse. While changing late behind may not be a big deal in jumping, it cremates your score in dressage.

However, in a jumping horse, being a stride late behind still gets you a united canter before the turn…so it’s worth it. And I somehow don’t think that waiting until schooling third level dressage isnt why most of the lower level eventers aren’t schooling the changes

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

The dressage trainers involved in the training of event horses have heart palpitations at the thought of training lead changes. It is just something that is not done until the horse is sufficiently advanced in the dressage department.

I know personally I have stayed away from schooling lead changes - if they happen good; if they do not, balanced canter and maybe a simple change if required/space permits. In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t really matter as long as the horse is balanced and listening… whereas teaching incorrect lead changes can mean that any aspirations in moving up into the high upper levels are effectively dead.

[Kadenz]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702156]
Being primarily a dressage trainer, I “get” the waiting to teach changes correctly thing…in a dressage horse. While changing late behind may not be a big deal in jumping, it cremates your score in dressage.

However, in a jumping horse, being a stride late behind still gets you a united canter before the turn…so it’s worth it. And I somehow don’t think that waiting until schooling third level dresage is why the eventers aren’t schooling the changes :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, but eventers also do dressage, so the quality of the change you teach the horse DOES matter.

It’s also worth noting that eventing dressage tests don’t require changes until the upper levels…but they do require counter-canter. In many horses the counter-canter becomes difficult to maintain after the horse learns changes. For horses and riders at that level, it may be more beneficial to NOT train the changes at all. And as noted above, they’re really not necessary in a 3-foot jumper course.

[arlosmine]

Hmmm…the Eq. Kids in my barn school counter canter and changes (one of the reasons they brought me in)…I agree that schooling sloppy changes can make a mess of counter canter, but not if done well. And by the time some one is riding courses at 3’, it seems that they could have the skills to do a change, or at least a simple change. Especially event riders, who presumably are doing more dressage than their hunter counterparts.

I do think that in an event horse, you have to be confident that the horse will jump the jump, even of everything is not “perfect”, because in XC they have to think on their own more, and be truly committed to jump. If the lead being wrong is a deal-braker, then you’ve got a problem.

I think maybe it’s a “cultural” thing. People aspire to what they see done, or not done.

[beowulf]

I agree with BFNE… You see the lead changes if you stick around, but often you don’t see them in the lower levels, particularly in the BN/N classes.

Honestly, I don’t think having the “wrong lead” matters much if you have a balanced and responding horse. My last campaigner had a GREAT lead change, but only on course in SJ - otherwise, forget it. It never held him back. Most eventers aren’t doing eventing because they care about neat, hunteresque rounds. They aren’t judged on it, and while it is a good skillset to have, it isn’t really mandatory if you have an athletic horse you don’t need the changes.

As long as the horse has a rhythmic, balanced canter, the lead probably doesn’t matter. I honestly think that sometimes being on the wrong lead is more upsetting for the rider than the horse… All of my horses could jump a 3ft+ spread off the wrong lead with no problem, and their athleticism varies from catty to bulldozer.

[Kadenz]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702188]
Hmmm…the Eq. Kids in my barn school counter canter and changes (one of the reasons they brought me in)…I agree that schooling sloppy changes can make a mess of counter canter, but notif done well, and but he time some one is rising courses at 3’, it seems that they could have the skills to do a change, or at least a simple change.

I think maybe it’s a “cultural” thing. People aspire to what they see done, or not done.[/QUOTE]

This totally depends on the horse. My FEI dressage horse was a total pill about counter-canter. He would pop those changes in every single chance he got. (He was at FEI when I got him; I wasn’t!) I was so happy when I progressed to 3rd Level because I didn’t have to fight him over the counter-canter anymore.

The thing is, these threads often are really (or end up as) barely-veiled criticism and judgment of people in a different discipline. The dressage people turn their noses up at flat “hunter changes”; the eventers laugh at dressage riders who can’t get out of the ring; the hunter people laugh at everyone else obsessing over changes when they teach them as early as possible.

[merrygoround]

They land on the wrong lead because no one has taught them how to ask for the correct lead before landing. I considered it a basic part of learning to jump.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7702214]
They land on the wrong lead because no one has taught them how to ask for the correct lead before landing. I considered it a basic part of learning to jump.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that is true for all or even most eventers…

[Outyougo]

In order to think outside the box, one must first know what is in the box.

On a green horse is is so nice to open up that “Box” and find Santa included flying changes in the box.

Personally I like jumping horses to have lead changes --flying or thru the trot. A well balanced horse will change leads.

[Frivian]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7702214]
They land on the wrong lead because no one has taught them how to ask for the correct lead before landing. I considered it a basic part of learning to jump.[/QUOTE]

LOL this is definitely not true for me…

I usually don’t do flying changes, although sometimes I’ll do simple changes if I feel like it won’t mess with my rhythm too much. My horse usually either lands correctly or can turn balanced when he’s on the wrong lead. In our last HT he actually did some flying changes on his own because he was balanced enough and thinking. But I don’t ask for them because it freaks him out and he’s not ready for that yet. He jumps very well from the wrong lead and at BN, it doesn’t really matter…

[asterix]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702188]

I do think that in an event horse, you have to be confident that the horse will jump the jump, even of everything is not “perfect”, because in XC they have to think on their own more, and be truly committed to jump. If the lead being wrong is a deal-breaker, then you’ve got a problem.
.[/QUOTE]

Right. So if, on my baby horse who is NOT ready to learn changes (and, yes, we do them on a dressage schedule, and in a dressage framework) gets to a 3’ fence in SJ OR on XC on the “wrong” lead, or even cross cantering…I expect him to jump anyway, and to do it cleanly. THAT is more important to me as a skill when he is young than changes.

Case in point, my last event, I absolutely 100% failed to get straight to my second fence. I allowed him to drift left (it was my moveup and I was a little anxious, what can I say) and he landed on the left lead, but we had a short rollback right turn to an oxer. With this horse, right now, having a good forward pace is more important than almost anything else, and I just didn’t have the time to do a simple change before the turn. So I just focused on keeping the energy and balance…pretty sure there was a moment of cross cantering but he jumped the fence neat as a pin and sorted himself out.

If I had to pick, that’s the skill I want instilled first and foremost. This winter we will confirm the counter canter and then do changes, as that’s how my dressage coach likes to do it.

He can absolutely jump around without issue at novice until he gets those tools installed.

Every week I spend time hacking out, doing basic field work, jumping, and dressage. You have to prioritize and I think for many of us this is just not a priority early on. From a competitive point of view you can “get it done” well without a change at the lower levels, so that’s what happens.

[JFCeventer]

I, personally, always make sure we’re on the correct lead when jumping a stadium round because we can use all the help we can get in the balance department :lol:

My horse came to me with an understanding of auto-changes, so I just cleaned them up. So yes, my horse does clean, balanced auto changes 98% of the time in stadium (he can do nice, clean changes on the flat too, FWIW) - if he’s cross-cantering or not getting the change, I trot to fix it.

I will say that any horse even remotely pointed towards Prelim+ should not be taught changes as it absolutely makes counter-canter a nightmare. One of my biggest issues with my guy who has the changes is doing counter-canter because no matter what I do, he always wants to change on me. Not teaching the changes, however, doesn’t mean you can’t do a simple change in a stadium course, and I do think that being on the correct lead is something more event trainers should be putting into their lower level riders. My first event trainer made it very clear that she wanted us on the correct lead all the time and I guess it just stuck with me.

So, there is a reason most event horses do not have changes - it’s usually done on purpose. It’s also not a necessity because eventers are not judged on their changes. I, personally, like to have my horses on the correct lead at all times when jumping, but I don’t criticize those who don’t because I completely understand that if the horse is in balance it doesn’t matter. Just my two cents.

[subk]

This truly isn’t a bashing post…just curious, and interested in the perspective of the sport’s participants.

What is the consensus on going around a corner on the correct lead but having the inside shoulder bulged out as so often happens in the H/J ring?

A couple years ago I audited the Emerging Athlete that brings the best and brightest young jumper riders to clinic with the likes of Linda Allen and Melanie Smith Taylor. It began with “flat” work where the riders were told to show up in a snaffle and be prepared to ride your horse in a connected frame. It was a disaster. Only about 3-4 kids out of two groups of a dozen had any clue what was being asked. They were unable to ride a round circle (of any size) returning to the rail at the same place they left it. I was horrified that anybody was going to let these completely inept kids on the flat jump 4’+ in the next session.

Later in the day was amazing I’ve never seen a dozen people of any age as good as these kids were once you got them 3 strides in front of the fence, over and 3 strides away, but their ability to get from one fence to the other was awful. They obsessed over lead changes then made no other effort to balance their horses around the turn. I don’t understand why you would bother with a lead change it you don’t care about creating a balanced horse.

The 3-4 kids who actually had an understanding of dressage and connection and balance were the head and shoulders the best.

So why don’t more jumper kids do dressage? I know the equatation kids supposedly do it, but why isn’t it translating into the young jumper ring.