Honest question: why no lead changes?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yup…MOST of my even green event horses DO their changes. They are OTTBs who came to me with decent changes already installed.–as they do install those at the track.

On my current horse…he is a flying change machine…he is about to move up to Prelim…and it DOES make the counter canter a royal PITA. Equ kids are NOT doing counter canter in small dressage ring…and I know a whole hell of a lot of Eq kids who also don’t know how to properly do counter canter (the really good ones do though).

Again…the focus and priority is about balance. And a 3 foot fence is NOT a big fence. Most reasonably athletic horses will change or can happly jump it from a cross canter or whatever. I agree with Astrix…I care FAR FAR FAR more that my horse learns to take care of them self, balance themself and jump whatever fence I point them at and leave it up. When you focus on balance and forward…MOST will change anyway but unlike hunters…we just do not get as worked up about the change. We do care far more about jumping from a balance—and while a change does make that easier, is is absolutely not a requirement.

[MKV]

I’m really enjoying everyone’s point of view on this thread. I had a very similar conversation with my reiner boyfriend. He came to watch some stadium at a HT and asked why riders didn’t do anything about leads. I explained to him pretty much everything that’s in this thread and he still seemed perplexed because they teach lead changes early on. Of course I’m a bit perplexed as to why reiners don’t seem to care that their horse’s haunches are swinging around before a canter depart, but hey - different disciplines - different strokes for different folks.

Edited to add:
With my green OTTB (his first BN is in a couple weeks) my goal with jumping is basically forward and straight. I don’t really care what lead he’s on. If he’s disunited or feels unbalanced on the wrong lead I usually bring him down to a trot and trot the next fence. I also find that if I’m riding him well enough then he’ll pick up the correct lead off the fence.

[scubed]

I tend to ride compact, scopey horses. At 3’6", being on the right lead does not seem to have any impact on the quality of the jump. Also, at the lower levels, the turns on the SJ courses aren’t all that steep, so it is easy enough for the horse to be balanced while counter-cantering (and in my eventing dressage, I’m going to need that balanced counter canter on a soft circle/serpentine long before I need a change). If I had a horse that seems to get disconnected/unbalanced due to being on the wrong lead, I would do a change (through trot if necessary), but otherwise don’t really think it has to happen - which is all pretty much what BFNE has already said

[Willesdon]

… but he jumped the fence neat as a pin and sorted himself out.

At its heart, eventing is about a horse getting across country and over fixed obstacles. In doing it, the horse must be able to take care of itself since it is not sensible or practical for the rider to manage every step of the journey (even if the very best do seem to know every stride). Balance, rhythm and a horse going forward is what makes a good run over XC fences. Having said that, most eventers can do changes - but they don’t win or loose by doing them or not.

[FlightCheck]

for the OP:
for my green-as-grass students or horses, I am happy if they FIND and jump all show jumps. I don’t want them getting so obsessed w/lead changes (flying or otherwise) that they waste time or forget their course.

For BN, they are changing over the fences, or if they can think fast enough a simple change through the turn. See above.

For N, changing over the fences or definitely simple changes through turn.

At training I expect semi good changes before showing recognized.

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=JFCeventer;7702258]

I will say that any horse even remotely pointed towards Prelim+ should not be taught changes as it absolutely makes counter-canter a nightmare. One of my biggest issues with my guy who has the changes is doing counter-canter because no matter what I do, he always wants to change on me. Not teaching the changes, however, doesn’t mean you can’t do a simple change in a stadium course, and I do think that being on the correct lead is something more event trainers should be putting into their lower level riders. My first event trainer made it very clear that she wanted us on the correct lead all the time and I guess it just stuck with me.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention that both 2014 Prelim tests ask for simple changes, so it’s not like people aren’t practicing them… just apparently not utilizing them outside the dressage arena. :winkgrin:

[JenEM]

I think it depends. Mine is never going Prelim+, or upper level dressage. We do occasionally also do hunter shows, where it does matter. She’s OTTB, and if you don’t try to tell her how/when to swap, she’s got a gorgeous lead change you don’t even feel happen. So when I do a jump course, I firstly try to balance myself over the fence so we get the lead we need; usually this is pretty easy on a jumper course, because if I’m looking where we’re going, she usually lands it, and barring that, I try to get her straight, then ask to turn, and she usually changes. Between those two methods, we get it probably 95% of the time. The other 5%? My approach depends on the situation. Hunter show, knowing we’d already blown it by that point, I’d probably bite the bullet and do a simple change through the trot. At an event this spring, we were on the wrong lead, but so wonderfully balance and with such good rhythm, I just let her go around the (big wide) turn on the wrong lead, because I value the balance and rhythm over the lead. It’s all about priorities, even for those of us who will never worry about needing proper “dressage” changes.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=subk;7702274]

So why don’t more jumper kids do dressage? I know the equatation kids supposedly do it, but why isn’t it translating into the young jumper ring.[/QUOTE]

Because they don’t want to. It’s “boring”. It’s why so many of them top out.

[arlosmine]

Fightcheck’s timetable makes sense to me.

By BN, it seems a rider should be able to aspire to remembering the course, balancing the horse so the change of track over the fence will change the lead…and barring that, do a simple lead change. If they have designs on moving up, eventually the lead is going to play into the quality of the course, so why not address that at 2’9" to 3’?

By N, the above could be an expected goal.

I for sure wouldn’t expect to see someone blowing leads in prelim…

[enjoytheride]

I think that because it’s not something which is scored many eventers don’t know HOW to put a lead change on their horse. Combined with the fact that most lower level eventers do all of their own riding and rarely have a pro up on their horse the horses don’t learn a change either. It’s better for someone who knows what they’re doing to put a change on a horse instead of a flailing owner who can barely make it through a gymnastic without going bowling for poles. I DO think that more people (including myself) need to be more aware of what is a counter canter and what is motor biking it around a corner on course.

I think that “I’m waiting because I don’t want to ruin our counter canter” is more of an excuse for most lower level riders since the majority of people will spend most of their life in BN and N. For the record I had one horse with automatic changes and one horse without a change.

[Vani]

I like to think that if you are at a show and unable to get a change quickly, that it is preferable to be in a balanced counter canter than to try to rush or fight for the correct lead.

My horse typically does automatic changes and if not will do them when asked. But, he will not do trot changes at shows because as soon as you trot he tenses up and gets veryyyy short. At the last show I went to, I had an embarrassing moment where I landed off the first fence on the wrong lead, tried to ask for a flying change multiple times-he changed behind before switching back to the incorrect lead-and then I had to make the decision to jump the next fence on the wrong lead or keep fighting for a change and risk being unbalanced. I’m sure to anyone watching it looked out of balance and silly (especially because of the level we were competing at and he did his changes perfectly the rest of the course :rolleyes:) but I think it was the better decision for my horse.

To the original post I have to ask: Does jumping a fence on the wrong lead always make for an unbalanced horse? Typically, I only see people on the wrong lead at N and BN and usually their horses seem to still take the fences in stride. While I have seen it at T and above, those riders seem to be making the conscious decision not to change. This could be because the changes haven’t been established or feel more confident holding the the wrong lead than trying to change last minute.

[merrygoround]

“They land on the wrong lead because no one has taught them how to ask for the correct lead before landing. I considered it a basic part of learning to jump.”

[QUOTE=beowulf;7702227]
I don’t think that is true for all or even most eventers…[/QUOTE]

If they consistently land on the wrong lead it is!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7703214]
“They land on the wrong lead because no one has taught them how to ask for the correct lead before landing. I considered it a basic part of learning to jump.”

If they consistently land on the wrong lead it is![/QUOTE]

Well I’ve yet been to a lesson or clinic with an event trainer where it wasn’t expected that we know how or work on landing on correct leads. So no. I disagree with you. It is a VERY typically and common skill worked on.

And if you go to an event…the VAST majority of riders are landing on correct leads, or correcting a lead or heaven forgive…on a horse that does a flying lead change.

[Ajierene]

Well, my mare never much liked her right lead. I could do a flying lead change from Right to left easily, but not the other way around. If I did not ask right over the jump, she would take the opportunity to land on the left lead - that meant even a minor shift in weight or leg not at QUITE the right spot meant landing on the left lead.

I also found that asking for a flying or simple change in the middle of a stadium course would result in disjointed canter, fussy mare and rails or a refusal - so while we made the attempt and worked on it at home, if we were turning on the outside lead, we were more balanced than fussy/confusion trying to get the correct lead.

The gelding I am leasing from my trainer is great and if we don’t land on the correct lead over the jump (usually due to right turn to the jump, left turn after the jump and I haven’t quite caught up), then I can ask for a change and he will give it to me. Now, when I first started riding him, just getting to the jumps was enough and my trainer specifically told me not to worry about it - one step at a time. So, if you saw us a year ago, you may have been wondering why we were on the outside lead and that is why.

[Lindsayah]

Sometimes…

I think that sometimes it has to do with the horse. At lower level eventing you see a bit more Heinz 57 of breeding and athleticism because it’s more about the brain and beingg able to truck a kid ( or an infantile aa like me) around xc. In hunter/eq/dressage, you see horses that are a bit ugh…fancier.

So you see some horses that are less inclined to throw in auto changes or have a tendency to land on a certain lead. And us weenie riders are just ever so grateful to have made it over all the jumps alive that we don’t muck about with the leads

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7703250]
Well I’ve yet been to a lesson or clinic with an event trainer where it wasn’t expected that we know how or work on landing on correct leads. So no. I disagree with you. It is a VERY typically and common skill worked on.

And if you go to an event…the VAST majority of riders are landing on correct leads, or correcting a lead or heaven forgive…on a horse that does a flying lead change.[/QUOTE]

At least someone agrees with me :yes:

I do think, however, that a show is not the time to school a change, or drill, or fix the tiny flaws in your round… At shows I believe most people are more concerned with a good round and a clean finish, NOT a change. So… I wouldn’t necessarily judge a rider’s merit/progress/education based on how they are at a show unless they are a pro, which, for the most part, most aren’t.

When I watched stadium rounds of my division and the divisions before me (both while in warmup and after our ride) I think I may have seen one or two people who did not complete the round on the correct lead[s]/change leads as the direction changed. And no changes are seldom in my area.

[woodhillsmanhattan]

[QUOTE=subk;7702274]
This truly isn’t a bashing post…just curious, and interested in the perspective of the sport’s participants.

What is the consensus on going around a corner on the correct lead but having the inside shoulder bulged out as so often happens in the H/J ring?

A couple years ago I audited the Emerging Athlete that brings the best and brightest young jumper riders to clinic with the likes of Linda Allen and Melanie Smith Taylor. It began with “flat” work where the riders were told to show up in a snaffle and be prepared to ride your horse in a connected frame. It was a disaster. Only about 3-4 kids out of two groups of a dozen had any clue what was being asked. They were unable to ride a round circle (of any size) returning to the rail at the same place they left it. I was horrified that anybody was going to let these completely inept kids on the flat jump 4’+ in the next session.

Later in the day was amazing I’ve never seen a dozen people of any age as good as these kids were once you got them 3 strides in front of the fence, over and 3 strides away, but their ability to get from one fence to the other was awful. They obsessed over lead changes then made no other effort to balance their horses around the turn. I don’t understand why you would bother with a lead change it you don’t care about creating a balanced horse.

The 3-4 kids who actually had an understanding of dressage and connection and balance were the head and shoulders the best.

So why don’t more jumper kids do dressage? I know the equatation kids supposedly do it, but why isn’t it translating into the young jumper ring.[/QUOTE]

Just FYI, the Emerging Athletes Program is actually suppose to be a “grass roots” program. So these kids aren’t any where near the “best of the best” and not a good example for what your average jumper rider is competent of for flatwork. It’s typically kids with limited rated show experience but aspire to higher level jumpers (who don’t have the horse trainer, financial backing, etc.). So you get a range of kids from 4H/pony club level, 3’-3’6 hunters, 3’6 jumpers’ and equitation riders. To qualify for the regional clinics you have to submit and application, 3 letters of recommendation, and take the horsemanship quiz. No riding evaluation.

[Foxtrot_s]

Even the big name show jumpers have been see to be on the wrong lead, or cross cantering. They do not stop to ‘fix’ the problem, there is a clock to watch.

Event horses have to be able to take care of themselves and they will. In fact
Jack Le Geoff used to say he did not want event horses schooled to the extent they had every footfall dictated to them they had to think for themselves.

It is not like everyone goes around thinking - “I’m an eventer, I don’t need to school.
Forget about fly changes, dressage is not important, it’s ok to look ragged”. Far from it.

These days eventers try to be as accurate as they can be, but the lead changes my not be ready yet.

[Gestalt]

I was very fortunate to learn jumping from a hunter coach that was also successful in the lower levels of eventing and dressage. She believed that every horse (and rider!) needed to know how to get your lead in the air, do flying changes AND counter canter.

I understand about the green horses, but a lot of riders just seem to “kick on”.

[wildlifer]

My observation is that it is easy to make observations from the outside – and we all do it, LOL.

I quit hunters for many reasons – but I have been there. And I’ve spent my life reading and watching and learning good HORSEMANSHP and training and asking questions constantly of people at the top of the sport, I find these things fascinating to think about and I’m a very logic-driven person. So I try to get down to the heart of what I’m trying to achieve and what really matters.

Riding a jump course, I want to give my horse a good canter rhythm and balance and present him with a good line. His job is to jump what I put in front of him. If he happens to be on the “wrong” lead, but still has good rhythm and balance, I sure as heck am not going to interrupt him to discuss pedantics!!

Additionally, many event horses DO come off the track, so they come “pre-loaded” with lead changes, as they are taught to swap in the turns during a race. My Appendix also volunteered his own, so both of mine are pretty consistent about taking care of business when they need to. I do not ask for it because I stay focused on impulsion and balance.

So I don’t care if someone outside the ring is criticizing me for being “on the wrong lead.” I chose this sport in part BECAUSE of the objective approach of riding a clean, effective jumping round. There are enough variables in horses, I don’t want to be judged on prettification.

No, of course I don’t like approaching a jump in a catty-wompus cross-canter, but riding at Training, jumps and turns are not miles apart. And if you are trying to change things 2-3 strides in front of a jump, you’ll just screw it up – as my very wise trainer says, those strides are his. Far better to just put your leg on, stay out of his face and wait, let your well-prepared horse who knows how to take care of his own feet sort it out while you stay in the middle of him…THEN land and reorganize.