I think where I see this the most is the lower levels and no a lot of them are NOT doing nice balanced turns on the counter canter, they are on the wrong lead and trying to turn. I do see it sometimes at higher levels too and I think its often the reason why some people have so many rails. The answer I see/hear the most is “I event I don’t need lead changes”. Yes I am a hunter person too who has also evented at times and worked with event trainers. I also believe that too many people are hung up on what they do versus just doing correct training.
I am so glad to see this thread! I have been having heart palpations about the fact that my draft cross just doesn’t seem to get the concept of lead changes.
I have never had a horse that I could not teach lead changes…I come from the land of hunters, jumpers and a tad of adult eq. I have also almost ridden OTTB’s and this is my 2nd draft cross, but even my other draftx, a jumper machine, could do lead changes. For me, being on the correct leads has always been important and my daughter’s mare, who could do tempi changes at the drop of a hat (TB) made it look so easy.
My dressage trainer has told me not to worry about them at this point in out training. This is my 3rd dressage instructor and the first one whom I am really pleased with the results I am achieving, so I will agree to go along with not asking for flying lead changes. But I would love to get them over the fence!
My draftx also has EPSM, so I wonder how much of that contributes to the inability to get changes. Or am I looking for an excuse? When I school him over fences, some days he can get 90% of the changes but then it will be a long time before I am lucky to get even one of 2 changes over jumps.
We have been out of the competing world for a few years now, due to either my being unemployed or his EPSM. I am finally gainfully employed and have the EPSM under control so we are ready to start showing this fall, when the weather cools down. I have been worrying about his leads, although I didn’t seem as bothered about it when I have shown him before…guess I needed something new to fret about, but maybe I need to find something else to worry about.
I scribe for stadium at our three recognized events (BN-I) each year. I see EVERY single round (except when I am competing). I would say the number of wrong leads/simple changes/counter cantering and cross cantering declines dramatically with each level, and by Prelim it is really very much the exception.
Look, it is abundantly clear to me that an easy change would be a very nice tool on course, and I’ll be happy when my horse has it. But not having it does not affect his competitiveness right now, and we have a long list of things to work on…and jumping safely and gamely from the “wrong lead” actually ranks above having a nice change in my training order of go.
Interesting this subject came up today. I was just schooling fences this morning. I had come off a fence on the left lead and was working my way down a diagonal line to get to a fence that would put me on the right lead and kept wondering if I should just stay on the left lead until the fence or switch mid line. I opted to switch so it was easier for my horse, but had to do it through the trot since we have not worked on flying changes. I’m never ever going to be at a level where clean flying changes will be in my dressage tests, but I can see why some would opt to not work on them until they knew the horse could do them right the first time. My understanding is that a horse that learns to switch incorrectly is very difficult to correct after the fact.
[QUOTE=whbar158;7703472]
I think where I see this the most is the lower levels and no a lot of them are NOT doing nice balanced turns on the counter canter, they are on the wrong lead and trying to turn. [/QUOTE]
When I see H/Js they get the correct lead, but the inside shoulder is so bulged out that no one in their right mind could say they are actually balanced. H/Js might have more horses on the correct lead, but I’d bet eventers have more horses who are actually balanced around a turn.
My draft cross (P/T level) was never taught changes. I taught her to jump from a balanced canter and honestly, sometimes a counter canter helped set her up to a fence. Eventually she started changing on her own in SJ because it felt better. She was extremely well balanced in the counter canter. She could do it for ages.
My OTTB came to me with auto changes. It took me 2 years to get him to counter canter around the short side of a small dressage arena. At home. If he’s tense at show, forget it.
I recently got my old OTTB mare back. She had been to god knows where (Well, I do, but I won’t point fingers) since I had her last. Now you canter her across the diagonal and she gallops 90 mph and slings her head around and hops up and down thinking she needs to change.
So… thats my experience with changes as an event rider.
As far as my students go? I drill leads before the turn at home. At shows, they’re so busy staring at their horses shoulder and flinging themselves around for the simple lead change that they miss the turn to the fence, so I say STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE LEAD AND JUMP THE JUMP.
Stupid question, but won’t your average self reliant horse just switch on his own if he feels that unbalanced?
Another thing to consider. The H/J courses, as I remember, are around the outside-across the diagonal-around the outside. Eventing courses are required to have multiple changes of hand.
So on a H/J course one jumps several fences on first one lead, then across the diagonal with lead change and jump more fences. Technically only one lead change is required. Horse and rider receive scores based on the horse’s striding and jump plus the rider’s position and aids (simply put).
On a BN or N course one will jump 9-11 efforts, at 300-320mph, with 4 or more rein changes. Eventers receive penalty points for dropping rails, refusals and/or time faults (exceeding the time allowed). Take a look at the USEF Eventing rules, specifically the “Jumping” section, faults as well as reasons for elimination. Notice, no style points for how the horse and rider go. The Stadium Judge, usually PGJ, does note whether the horse and rider appear to be unsafe, as in a danger to themselves. The official has fairly strict guidelines to follow in order to give the competitor a warning card or to eliminate them.
In short the Eventer has many things to consider while on course, even at the lower levels. Not to say H/J riders have less, but it is a different sport even tho both are jumping painted rails in an arena.
All of my trainers have emphasized a balanced, steady canter for jumping both SJ and XC courses. We often worked on picking a specific lead over fences. As in take a fence turn right on the right lead, circle back and jump the fence asking for the left lead and so on. We normally used a simple change through the trot for a lead change until both horse and rider were ready to do the changes “dressage” proper.
[QUOTE=Lori T;7703487]
I am so glad to see this thread! I have been having heart palpations about the fact that my draft cross just doesn’t seem to get the concept of lead changes.
I have never had a horse that I could not teach lead changes…I come from the land of hunters, jumpers and a tad of adult eq. I have also almost ridden OTTB’s and this is my 2nd draft cross, but even my other draftx, a jumper machine, could do lead changes. For me, being on the correct leads has always been important and my daughter’s mare, who could do tempi changes at the drop of a hat (TB) made it look so easy.
My dressage trainer has told me not to worry about them at this point in out training. This is my 3rd dressage instructor and the first one whom I am really pleased with the results I am achieving, so I will agree to go along with not asking for flying lead changes. But I would love to get them over the fence!
My draftx also has EPSM, so I wonder how much of that contributes to the inability to get changes. Or am I looking for an excuse? When I school him over fences, some days he can get 90% of the changes but then it will be a long time before I am lucky to get even one of 2 changes over jumps.
We have been out of the competing world for a few years now, due to either my being unemployed or his EPSM. I am finally gainfully employed and have the EPSM under control so we are ready to start showing this fall, when the weather cools down. I have been worrying about his leads, although I didn’t seem as bothered about it when I have shown him before…guess I needed something new to fret about, but maybe I need to find something else to worry about.[/QUOTE]
EPSM can affect his strength and balance so yes, his ability to do a balanced lead change. I personally would NOT work on a flying lead change but WOULD work on making sure you can land on a choosen lead. So set a small fence and do a figure 8 pattern over it asking for a different lead on landing. There will be one direction that he may consistently find more difficult to land on. That is his weeker direction and you will need to spend more time getting that side stronger…doing flat work, transtions etc. I would spend far more energy working on getting him stronger, balanced, straight and forward…and not spend any energy with worry about a lead change. Get his canter strong and correct, and the lead change will be there eventually.
[QUOTE=subk;7703533]
When I see H/Js they get the correct lead, but the inside shoulder is so bulged out that no one in their right mind could say they are actually balanced. H/Js might have more horses on the correct lead, but I’d bet eventers have more horses who are actually balanced around a turn.[/QUOTE]
Totally depends on what level you are talking about, sure there are hunters out there like that, but except at small schooling shows they generally aren’t winning. You can however win an event galloping around unbalanced (obviously it isn’t ideal and NOT what good riders are going for).
I do find that a lot of horses will change if you set them up for it, balanced, change the bend etc and actually ask. I can totally see how a horse that has auto changes can be difficult as you move up the dressage ranks. But a horse that has been taught not to change until asked is a lot easier. That is how my hunter horse was and counter canter stuff was easy on him and yes at the lower levels he has now spent a lot of time cantering corners on the wrong lead in the hunter ring because well he’s not changing unless you ask him correctly and the kids didn’t always know while they were learning.
I personally like to have a nice clean change (through the trot if I have to) when schooling, in the show ring if it isn’t a clean change I will go back to the wrong lead and balance. I see a lot of rails at the higher levels when the horse is cross cantering into a fence. But I also know that when I see a video or see them at a show I am seeing a snap shot in time and don’t really know what they are working on at home etc a lot of riders get nervous and freeze up a bit so it isn’t always the best representation of their skills.
I do think that lower level horses should attempt to have changes installed because it does help for marketing purposes if they can go into the hunters too.
Ditto what has been said already, plus my two cents:
A balanced canter in stadium will always trump a particular lead. In fact, there have been times when I intentionally counter-cantered through a turn because it gave me the shoulder control I wanted going into the next line.
[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702156]
. And I somehow don’t think that waiting until schooling third level dressage isnt why most of the lower level eventers aren’t schooling the changes :)[/QUOTE]
Yup.
[QUOTE=whbar158;7703859]
Totally depends on what level you are talking about, sure there are hunters out there like that, but except at small schooling shows they generally aren’t winning. [/QUOTE]
Living 10 minutes from a major facility that hosts about 8-10 recognized H/J shows a year I’m exposed to a a great deal of H/Js of a high quality. I disagree with you that its rare and they aren’t winning. Nor was it what I witnessed at an Emerging Athlete Clinic with Linda Allen and Melanie Smith.
[QUOTE=tbchick84;7703554]
Stupid question, but won’t your average self reliant horse just switch on his own if he feels that unbalanced?[/QUOTE]
Not really…first off, being on the correct lead doesn’t mean they are balanced…just as they can be balanced NOT on the correct lead.
Look at a bunch of young horses running loose in the field. Some will naturally do quick and good lead changes…other will not but they will still be balanced and comfortable.
[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702156]
. And I somehow don’t think that waiting until schooling third level dressage isnt why most of the lower level eventers aren’t schooling the changes :)[/QUOTE]
No most are not waiting to school them to do them correctly for 3rd level…BUT we are waiting so as NOT to damage the current canter OR make performing the counter harder.
Event horses have to do counter canter and simple changes at Prelim–so at a fairly low level. Most of us will be schooling the counter canter LONG before then both as preparation for moving up to prelim but also because a correct counter canter is a very good tool for training better balance, self carriage and improving the overall quality of the canter.
Schooling flying lead changes can make schooling counter canter much tougher…AND can also fry the brains of some horses. So when you have so many other things to work on, WHY would that be your focus? It is much more efficient to focus on improving the canter and balance of the canter. And for that…NO dressage trainer would tell you to work on flying changes.
[QUOTE=fooler;7703579]
Another thing to consider. The H/J courses, as I remember, are around the outside-across the diagonal-around the outside. Eventing courses are required to have multiple changes of hand.
So on a H/J course one jumps several fences on first one lead, then across the diagonal with lead change and jump more fences. Technically only one lead change is required. Horse and rider receive scores based on the horse’s striding and jump plus the rider’s position and aids (simply put).
On a BN or N course one will jump 9-11 efforts, at 300-320mph, with 4 or more rein changes. Eventers receive penalty points for dropping rails, refusals and/or time faults (exceeding the time allowed). Take a look at the USEF Eventing rules, specifically the “Jumping” section, faults as well as reasons for elimination. Notice, no style points for how the horse and rider go. The Stadium Judge, usually PGJ, does note whether the horse and rider appear to be unsafe, as in a danger to themselves. The official has fairly strict guidelines to follow in order to give the competitor a warning card or to eliminate them.
In short the Eventer has many things to consider while on course, even at the lower levels. Not to say H/J riders have less, but it is a different sport even tho both are jumping painted rails in an arena.
All of my trainers have emphasized a balanced, steady canter for jumping both SJ and XC courses. We often worked on picking a specific lead over fences. As in take a fence turn right on the right lead, circle back and jump the fence asking for the left lead and so on. We normally used a simple change through the trot for a lead change until both horse and rider were ready to do the changes “dressage” proper.[/QUOTE]
I agree that hunter courses are much more simple and straight forward than stadium courses in eventing. Jumper courses are a very different story, however. There are many more jumps with numerous changes of reign, tight turns, combinations and roll-backs.
Jumpers need great pace and balance, leads over fences and auto lead changes as well as the ability to save themselves when things go wrong in order to be successful. Jumper courses ask a lot of questions and they must be finessed at high speed.
I have found this very interesting as I have watched a few events and wondered what was going on in the stadium rounds. The reasons given for not prioritizing leads at the lower levels make sense to me and help me to understand and appreciate the sport better. Eventing is an amazing sport and coming from jumper land it is nice to get an explanation so I can appreciate the stadium rounds more. Dressage and cross country are awesome with no explanations.
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE
[QUOTE=subk;7704304]
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE[/QUOTE]
Man, that was thrilling to watch! I forgot all about those two.
Sure proves the point that a balanced canter trumps a particular lead. Or multiple leads as the case may be :lol:
I love these threads. (Sarcasm font).
Non-eventer says they are genuinely curious about this particular issue. Eventers good naturedly explain the thought process (despite it seeming to be a quarterly topic). Non-eventer then continues to argue that it is silly that we don’t care about this particular thing instead of going, oh. Ok. Well, whatever works.
Until you’ve developed a few event horses or helped new event riders learn the ropes and realize just how many things there are to work on to have a reasonably successful outing even at BN, I think it’s a bit silly to say, with no real knowledge of what all that entails, that we should be making it a priority.
For the record, any LL horse I’ve ever schooled has had either a good lead change established or an attentive simple change, and their main rider has been taught to utilize it (along with riding a balanced gait-trot or canter- to the fence). My horses that have been hopeful UL horses may have had the occasional spot check on their flying changes but a big deal was never made.
[QUOTE=subk;7704304]
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE[/QUOTE]
Lead schmead. That little mare was just amazing!
