Honest question: why no lead changes?

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=subk;7704118]
Living 10 minutes from a major facility that hosts about 8-10 recognized H/J shows a year I’m exposed to a a great deal of H/Js of a high quality. I disagree with you that its rare and they aren’t winning. Nor was it what I witnessed at an Emerging Athlete Clinic with Linda Allen and Melanie Smith.[/QUOTE]

Just wanted to clarify that the EAP is not for the cream of the crop and the kids who already know it all. The point of the program is to identify kids with drive and desire but that have NOT had the exposure to great training, been riding great horses, etc. So it would make perfect sense to me that the kids you were watching in the EAP couldn’t execute a lot of the work because, indeed, they haven’t learned it or had the opportunity to learn it.

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=subk;7704304]
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE[/QUOTE]

I loved this mare. My junior hunter’s stall was next to hers at River Circle. I thought it was the coolest thing ever that my horse and Kitty were neighbors.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=subk;7704304]
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE[/QUOTE]
Good things DO come in small packages

The heck with the lead, it was fun to watch how that horse was balanced and how she carried herself over the jumps. It was a beautiful ride and one could only wonder how she would have been cross country (had she Evented). My guess, wonderful to watch.

On topic, as a LLR working now in Novice our whole focus has been on pace, rhythm, balance. Getting Sterling in front of my leg so he can do the rest. While we’ve been training to get a (flying lead?) over the jump, it has not been 100% though he’ll change as needed after landing*. What I strive for is that feeling of power ready to unleash as we jump. If I am fumbling around, trying to get the correct lead then I am not focused on the coming jump and how he feels. There have been a few times when we’d not so much cross canter and had the front and back working opposite (A rather odd feel). Then I’ll trot, fix, and get going again, but that has never happened at a show, just training.

*That is more me since sometimes I’m still not looking the next jump as we go over.

[scubed]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7702922]
Fightcheck’s timetable makes sense to me.
I for sure wouldn’t expect to see someone blowing leads in prelim…[/QUOTE]

Come to Fair Hill this weekend. I’m moving up to preliminary and betting it happens

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=scubed;7704718]
Come to Fair Hill this weekend. I’m moving up to preliminary and betting it happens[/QUOTE]

GOOD LUCK!!! I decided to do the PT at Waredaca (need to regroup after Millbrook)…pretty sure there may be some interesting lead changes for me too…although my guy is more likely to do tempi flying lead changes while jumping then hold a cross or counter canter. And we will most certainly being doing a flying lead change in the dressage test…when we should be holding the counter canter. I’m taking bets we will blow the counter canter both directions!!!

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=subk;7704304]
Watch this video starting around 1:30 (before 1:30 is pretty great too) and while you’re watching keep in mind that this horse would NEVER progress in H/J land today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuRbr6q2wE[/QUOTE]

I was thinking of that round with this thread too - that amazing mare never had a reliable lead change and cross-cantered around quite a lot.

I come from the hunters, and I very much appreciate a good clean lead change. I’ve also learned to finesse some sticky-changing horses around by getting my leads in the air.

In the hunters, it’s a fundamental skill and a major fault. If your horse blows a lead, you’ve already lost the class, so it’s something you school and solve at home, and if you blow it in the ring, trotting and fixing is the least worst option as well as being potentially a good school for next time. (Plus, maybe you hope the judge looked down at the card for a moment ) If your horse makes the mistake repeatedly, he gets a new discipline.

In eventing, it’s not judged at all. So, you do what is best for finishing the course that day. And yes, there are lots of other skills to school, so maybe it’s not in your top ten.

How you know it’s as much about the horses as the riders and trainers is that you see plenty of blown leads in the jumper classes - again, horses that wash out of the hunters because of leads sometimes end up there.

Balance is the most important thing for an eventing round both in sj and xc. I’d also agree that blown leads are much more common in the lower levels and less frequent at prelim and up, which has to do IMHO both with the horses and the riders at those levels.

[Foxtrot_s]

Just want to wish Scubed good luck at Prelim - you kick on and show 'em, lead or no lead.

[wildlifer]

Was thinking about this thread last night and just wanted to share two thoughts –

(1) If a rider finds it “heresy” to be on the “wrong” lead at some point on a jump course because the other lead would automatically be a better choice, that would therefore mean said rider believes it is impossible for a horse to balanced and straight in the counter-canter EVER. Someone better tell the DQs!

(2) No matter what your discipline, when jumping, your horse should (hey, we try) be straight in the approach and going over the jump. On a straight line, there are no leads, ergo, the argument becomes moot.

Global problem solved, you’re welcome! (GO SCUBED!!)

[asterix]

Good luck scubed, and Bornfree, I’ll be cheering you on at Waredaca. When not announcing, I’ll be jumping the monkey around his second novice. He can clearly change, and I could insist, but it’s more of a distraction than a help right now (he gets a bit uppity pants about it), so we’ll be one of those dreadful lower level eventers on the wrong lead on occasion.

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=scubed;7704718]
Come to Fair Hill this weekend. I’m moving up to preliminary and betting it happens[/QUOTE]

You go girl!!! That is awesome. I’ll be cyber-cheering you on.

I was just perusing some of my Prelim rounds and I had all kinds of lead stuff going on.

But balanced to the jump? Hell yeah

[chicagojumper]

[QUOTE=fooler;7703579]

So on a H/J course one jumps several fences on first one lead, then across the diagonal with lead change and jump more fences. Technically only one lead change is required. [/QUOTE]

Not that it really matters, but that’s incorrect. A minimum of two direction changes is required - such as outside line-diagonal line-lead change-outside line-diagonal line-lead change; a handy hunter course often has several changes of direction.

For what it’s worth, hunters and jumpers are two very different things as well, so in conversations like these it’s sometimes helpful to specify which you’re referring to. The courses and styles of riding are quite distinct from each other.

Just poking my head in as somebody who doesn’t really care what lead anybody is on as long as the rider is happy, the horse is happy, and they’re doing what they enjoy. :yes:

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=jen-s;7704513]
Lead schmead. That little mare was just amazing![/QUOTE]

She starts the course with a lead change. Just because in competition it’s iffy, bouncy, and every which way, does not mean that its not schooled some manner. The mare clearly understands the cue for a change. That mare and that rider are exceptions, and one can bet that they absolutely understood correct fundamentals (ie changes, etc.).

I don’t understand the hype about changes. We learned about them from week 1, from a rider now in the Jumper Hall of Fame…during camp we would have competitions to see how many you could get down the long side of the ring. Those on ponies had a competitive advantage It was part of getting the horse in-tune to your leg, you aware of your legs, understanding forward, correct canter aids, a solid half-seat, etc. A fundamental component of forward seat 101 - because if you couldn’t get one, something was being done incorrectly, or you had dulled your horse. I should add that this was all learned in half-seat, and then refined while sitting. Sitting incorrectly and asking for changes is where you can really start to mess the horse up, too many confusing aids, if you get off your bum then you are down to 2 aids, in my eyes less stuff to much up :lol: Maybe the bouncing bottom & often noticed driving seat are part of why they are lacking in the lower levels.

Really though, except for a few, I think this is a big deal that ought not to exist. I’d consider it equivalent to learning to jump a log, not the drop into water or boggy ditch that some seem to think it is.

[Lori_T]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7703840]
EPSM can affect his strength and balance so yes, his ability to do a balanced lead change. I personally would NOT work on a flying lead change but WOULD work on making sure you can land on a choosen lead. So set a small fence and do a figure 8 pattern over it asking for a different lead on landing. There will be one direction that he may consistently find more difficult to land on. That is his weeker direction and you will need to spend more time getting that side stronger…doing flat work, transtions etc. I would spend far more energy working on getting him stronger, balanced, straight and forward…and not spend any energy with worry about a lead change. Get his canter strong and correct, and the lead change will be there eventually.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice. We have been working on lead changes over fences, he just isn’t getting it! I have given up on flying changes. I figured that the EPSM might be part of the problem, and I am glad to see that I don’t need to be sweating this! Hopefully, as our dressage lessons continue, he will get stronger and more balanced and figure it all out!

[tbchick84]

So as long as we get to the fence straight and balanced, nobody gives a crap. Does that sum it up correctly?

[goodmorning]

:lol:

(nobody - ? - I event now, I care, as does my trainer & a few I’ve cliniced with…)

[tbchick84]

My point was, there seem to be many more items with higher priority at least at the lower green levels. Forward and straight has been drilled into my head. Getting a correct lead over the fence has just been icing on the cake to date.

[QUOTE=goodmorning;7705222]
:lol:

(nobody - ? - I event now, I care, as does my trainer & a few I’ve cliniced with…)[/QUOTE]

[lcw579]

[QUOTE=onthebit;7704603]
Just wanted to clarify that the EAP is not for the cream of the crop and the kids who already know it all. The point of the program is to identify kids with drive and desire but that have NOT had the exposure to great training, been riding great horses, etc. So it would make perfect sense to me that the kids you were watching in the EAP couldn’t execute a lot of the work because, indeed, they haven’t learned it or had the opportunity to learn it.[/QUOTE]

@woodhillsmanhattan;7703388

Just FYI, the Emerging Athletes Program is actually suppose to be a “grass roots” program. So these kids aren’t any where near the “best of the best” and not a good example for what your average jumper rider is competent of for flatwork. It’s typically kids with limited rated show experience but aspire to higher level jumpers (who don’t have the horse trainer, financial backing, etc.). So you get a range of kids from 4H/pony club level, 3’-3’6 hunters, 3’6 jumpers’ and equitation riders. To qualify for the regional clinics you have to submit and application, 3 letters of recommendation, and take the horsemanship quiz. No riding evaluation.

Actually, you do have to submit a video of your riding, preferably at show competing at 1.10m at least. Most of the kids in my daughter’s group were actively competing and had reputable trainers. None of the participants really struggled with the flat work so they are practicing something.

As for the comment that jumper kids don’t do dressage? You aren’t hanging around with the right jumpers. The ones I know all do a lot of flat work. How else do you get a balanced and adjustable mount for those tight turns?

[fooler]

[QUOTE=chicagojumper;7704862]
Not that it really matters, but that’s incorrect. A minimum of two direction changes is required - such as outside line-diagonal line-lead change-outside line-diagonal line-lead change; a handy hunter course often has several changes of direction.

For what it’s worth, hunters and jumpers are two very different things as well, so in conversations like these it’s sometimes helpful to specify which you’re referring to. The courses and styles of riding are quite distinct from each other.

Just poking my head in as somebody who doesn’t really care what lead anybody is on as long as the rider is happy, the horse is happy, and they’re doing what they enjoy. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification of a “basic hunter course”. For the record I was trying to compare a lower level hunter course to a lower level eventer course. To the best of my knowledge the handy hunter class can ask for changes in gait as well as direction plus other possible tests, so would “compare” to the eventing training level and above.
Totally agree with your last statement!

[eqsiu]

[QUOTE=subk;7702274]

I know the equatation kids supposedly do it, but why isn’t it translating into the young jumper ring.[/QUOTE]

I’ve yet to see any eq kid (even ones doing big eq) actually do dressage. They work plenty on flatwork, and while the exercises may even be the same what is expected of the horse is not.

[scubed]

And, yes. There were wrong leads in the SJ. He had one rail (out of the one stride to which he came in on the correct lead). Wrong lead off the triple rail to the outside line and wrong lead to the last. He felt balanced and happy so I just left it be. I had 1 second of time anyway, trotting to change would have added more.