So - to both of you - what is the ideal plan of action that would make y’all happy? Sell immediately?
Or, the more reasoned approach, which is what she is doing - get Honey some training, see if they can come together, and learn more about Honey’s reactions so that she can decide?
Like - I just don’t understand what your repeated two cents is hoping to accomplish? We all get that you feel the mare is unsuitable, without seeing the videos. Fine, that’s totally your prerogative. But what now?
Secondly - breed is only relevant because the LOOK of the breed is often misinterpreted. I cannot tell you how many times my horse has snorted and people get scared. He snorts. It’s a breed characteristic. He’s not even hot (though he is sensitive, but in a good way). Kids have ridden him.
@Sdel And i’m not surprised you don’t disagree with that statement, based on your history of posts on this thread.
And my farrier adores my mare - she lifts her legs for him without him having to ask, she moves over the second he moves to do her opposite side, he doesn’t have to touch her and push her over, and she gives him nuzzles and kisses and tickles/licks his back (to a point, i don’t let her distract him TOO much), she doesn’t pull away, or hop around, she’s a doll. But i do give her something to nibble on while she’s being done.
A lot of this is what we are programmed/conditioned to believe and the associations we have made growing up with horses. We are taught that certain behaviours mean certain things. That certain behaviours will lead to other (worse) things.
I need my mare to stand still when a human is handling her/doing something with her. I do not NEED her to stand still otherwise, because i know her behaviour will never escalate to anything more than a nervous poop or two. It’s just her way of blowing off her vibrate-y energy - in a safe way that does not endanger human, horse, or property. It’s what makes her HER. So i laugh and i tell her she’s being a dork.
I am sorry you are so annoyed by your horse’s personality. That’s kinda sad.
Everyone understands that and how difficult the situation can be. The issue here is that some people are trying to point out possible realities and temper expectations and others seem to be reacting badly to that.
For what it’s worth, I’m in the same boat with a horse. He was on the edge of either too much or just right with the ability to help me grow. I asked my then trainer to call the seller and see if he was worth going to see. That trainer failed me because there was definitely trainer speak and yellow flags. My test ride went well however and we moved forward. The vetting was also less than ideal and full of yellow flags and I made bad decisions and mistakes from a lack of confidence. I now have this horse. I love him and he’s usually sweet as pie, but too unpredictable and dangerous under saddle to sell and still can be a bit intimidating for me on the ground. I make it work, but it’s not exactly fun or even always safe.
First - this post has literally NOTHING to do with Honey. This is a more general post about equine behavior and human interpretation of it.
I grew up believing a quiet appearing horse was a good horse. More quiet = more good.
Training methods at the time were really bent on submission. There’s still evidence of that in methods like Clinton Andersons’ and in some of the western show horse training (again, with the caveat of not all horsemen and not all training). I still valued all of those things.
Then I had a few serious injuries that came out of the blue from “quiet” appearing horses, so I started down a path of re-examining my views on training and my views on what made a safe horse. What I noticed was that a lot of training was about hiding a horse’s (of any breed) natural tendencies. And what happens when you do that? You get a horse that outwardly appears safe, but is secretly harboring a LOT of fear so when you cross a threshold inadvertently you get an explosion.
What I do appreciate about my horses (in particular my more expressive ones) is that they show you pretty quickly what they are interested in - long, and I do mean long - before an explosion occurs. Is it still possible for a more animated/expressive horse to explode? Of course. If you ignore the 7200 warnings you get, you’ll get an explosion.
It totally changed my view on what was safe behavior and also how to train horses so that they accepted, but did not shut down to, stimuli. The saddlebred story kind of came in the middle as I was trying to sort through all of that philosophy.
Loads of learning that transformed my training and my riding. I’m grateful for it. Really grateful for it.
Again, this particular post has nothing to do with Honey.
First off, I haven’t said she should sell her immediately. But I will note right here that you did post and talked about how you didn’t think people should decide to sell horses they purchased who weren’t a good match, but instead should persevere for awhile.
I think it’s great the OP is working with a trainer. That’s a great first step.
Also, I did go back and look at the prior thread and watched a few of the videos posted there, so that I would be more fair and knowledgeable when commenting. I probably haven’t seen all the videos you have, but I did see several.
So here’s my concern. I’ll be blunt. Honey is a teenaged mare who has had very inconsistent training, and it’s unknown whether or not the training she had was even knowledgeable quality training. She apparently spent more of her life turned out than she did under saddle. She apparently did a little bit of trail riding at some point, and some dressage… but the description of whatever dressage training the mare had leads me to wonder what exactly that involved. It doesn’t sound like the mare has any show record. And… the mare had a foal.
So she’s a teenaged project horse. Which is fine. She seems sweet and is certainly cute.
But the OP is a beginner who has gone through serious stressful life changes recently. Also, it sounds like the OP is an adult rerider, and struggled previously when she felt over mounted and had a green horse who was spooky at times. And I say that not at all to shame the OP. I’ve been over mounted at times and I took time off riding and later came back to it as an adult. These things can be hard.
So back to this idea of one month of “boot camp” and then transitioning to only partial training. I’m not so sure that’s a realistic plan for success for Honey and the OP. This is a teenaged mare who has been out of work more than she has been in work. If it were my horse… I would place her with a pro for 60 days, and that would involve 5 rides a week. I would then do thirty days, and maybe have that involve a half training plan … 3 days a week, and maybe that’s one pro ride and two lessons for me, or two pro rides and one lesson for me. On the other two days, I would hack the horse on my own.
This is just my take on it. I think that plan would be better for the horse and give the trainer a real chance to evaluate the horse, and evaluate the feasibility of making the match of the OP with this horse work. I don’t believe a half training sort of boot camp for 30 days will allow for a thorough evaluation period.
If they followed the plan I outlined, at the end of 90 days… it should be clear whether or not the match between the horse and rider works. If it doesn’t work, the horse should be trained up and conditioned a bit, and hopefully easier to sell than she currently is.
The brutal reality… having horses in training is expensive. The OP has gone through a personally stressful period. From what she’s saying, it doesn’t sound like she’s in a spot to invest this much in the horse. And that concerns me a bit.
Last thing, on a prior thread the OP mentioned that Honey has arthritis. Maintaining a teenaged horse with a little bit of arthritis so that it is comfortable and willing in its work? That can also be a bit expensive. Adequan twice a year, or Legend, and occasional joint injections if needed? It adds up. Maybe OP is already investing in all this sort of thing. It if not… I worry that will also be a challenge when it comes to whether or not this horse is a good match for her. My experience with mildly arthritic horses is that it is hard to make progress with training if you haven’t addressed discomfort sufficiently. Given that Honey hasn’t been in consistent under saddle work for years… I think it’s going to be hard to get her going and get her happy in her work if there is underlying arthritis that isn’t well managed. Just my opinion.
I understand some people on this thread love ASBs and really want to support the OP and this horse. But… I see it a little differently. I see that the OP has tried EXCEPTIONALLY hard with this horse, and came into it after having a hard time with a prior horse. And on top of that, she has gone through a lot of life stress recently. And I want her to know that if she decides she’s not prepared to put a few thousand more dollars into training and arthritis meds for Honey over the next few months just to make her more rideable… it’s absolutely OK. That does not mean the OP is a failure or a bad owner. She’s actually done a great job getting this mare into better shape than when she bought her, and it’s totally fine to decide to move Honey on now to someone who is a better fit for the mare at this stage, and for the OP to find a lease horse, or purchase something, so that she can enjoy riding more right now, and build her own confidence, and feel good about herself and successful and have some stress relief from the rest of her life.
I think we’re all trying to point out possible realities and temper expectations. We’re just coming at it from different angles. Which would be okay if the responses were more reasoned, but what I have noticed is that attempts to actually communicate back and forth are met with repetition of “you ASB people are just crazy” and no reasonable attempts at understanding what we are saying is made. It’s ALWAYS ok to disagree.
This sounds like a really sucky situation and I’m so sorry you’re dealing with it. Is his unpredictability due to issues found in the vetting? Otherwise, could a more competent rider/trainer work with him? I say this only because you mention that he is at the edge of your competency level, not because I am making any assessment of such.
Having trouble with a horse you have bought is a really emotionally fraught process. It is no wonder that I’m reading significant emotions behind your posts because you are dealing with it right now. I wish you luck whatever you decide.
Honestly… I think it’s in your head that the rest of the people commenting are scared of Saddlebreds because they pose with head high and ears pricked, or occasionally snort.
Some people commenting on this thread ride at a really high level. Some train young horses. Some have a lot of experience handling stallions. Some have years of experience with Arabs and NSH. Some are great at restarting OTTBs off the track. Some get out there and event and go cross country on a variety of different breeds…
Anyway… you made an earlier comment about how brave Saddleseat riders are. I didn’t quite know how to interpret it. But the way you seem to talk about other people who have extensive experience with other disciplines… it’s just coming across a bit off-putting to me. Plenty of us are not at all scared of Saddlebreds, even if we don’t ride Saddleseat. We are just concerned about the combination of this particular horse and rider. And some of us think the OP seems like a really sweet person and want to support her having a fun and successful experience with horse ownership and riding.
This is beautiful and much better than what the majority of the naysayers seemed to be communicating. I am presuming that the trainer who is working with Honey is agreeing with the OPs plan.
That’s not quite what I said. What I said was, it is not uncommon for even perfect matches to go through significant bumps in the first two years. This situation has the added complexities you listed. That does make it a bit trickier for all involved.
We ALL agreed with this. It’s back in my post history somewhere, but I absolutely agreed that if she executes her plan and it doesn’t work out, there is NO guilt or shame.
He has neck arthritis, as I said earlier in the thread, caused by injury due to poor decisions in handling and riding made by people (me and my former trainer) who it turns out were not up to the skill level for the situation they found themselves in. My kid could have been paralyzed or killed and the other rider broke 5 ribs and almost punctured a lung. I would not risk anyone else working with him because, as I said earlier, after sending two people to the hospital with possible major injuries (where you made fun of my concerns), even a trainer who laughs at handling the most rank horses around refused to continue working with him.
The sad thing is, he was being ridden by a 9 year old when I bought him.
Nah, the actual comments about how terrifying he is were made in person. Until they ride him or handle him and they say “wow, he’s such a cool horse”. Not in my head at all and I am not basing that on this thread. He really is the coolest. He trail rides, drives, jumps, he does obstacles, all sorts of things - he’s just a gem.
Uh, I said that they weren’t necessarily particularly brave. Because although the horses look crazy, they are safe for beginners. Of course, like all rider combinations, there are variations in horse and rider bravery, spiciness, and safety.
I’m not a saddleseat person. And it is SUPER common for riders to not get much experience with other disciplines, and saddleseat isn’t a common one. I don’t know how that statement of fact is offputting. It’s just a statement of fact. Most of us pick a discipline and stay within those bounds, varying only between closely related disciplines. I spent 30 years riding hunters, jumpers, and western horses before I stumbled into my first saddleseat barn. There are so few of them in number, comparatively. And saddlebreds outside of Amish buggies or saddleseat riding are rarer. They exist, and are growing since the saddlebred has started to become known as a sporthorse, but they are still uncommon enough that most barns have never had one board there.
But, I digress, how many times have you seen posts or threads about those “crazy eyed cracked out saddlebreds”. I’ve seen SO many. There was just one the other day about it on the dressage board, with numerous misconceptions about how they are trained and what their natural tendencies are.
I know this board pretty well. I’ve been here since the 00s. We definitely have a lot of levels of experience and expertise. It has always been a great resource. But - I do find that there are areas that we are stronger (lots of expertise in hunter jumpers, eventing and dressage) and weaker (significantly less expertise in western riding, and we don’t even have a saddleseat forum so I would expect very few people to have significant knowledge of it). Though we have individuals who have expertise, as a collective, there are fewer.
Again, this has little specifically to do with Honey, and more about other posts.
Woah, that’s ALSO a misconstruing of what I said. I was frustrated because you applied your situation to ALL horses and riders. You have a very specific situation with some very important and specific parameters that aren’t necessarily applicable to this one. You made some very bold blanket statements about how if a horse shows any behavior remotely being less than ideal, it is immediately a red flag. And you did not mention the severe injuries initially.
I’m sorry, I forgot about the arthritis. It sounds like you don’t like handling this horse nor is he suitable for anyone else. Sounds like you might be looking at a very difficult decision. I feel badly for you but your experience is not universal. You’re in the middle of something really tough.
See… we are having a bit of a miscommunication again. I totally will take your word for it about whatever you experienced in person with your horse.
What I was challenging was your comments asserting that people commenting on THIS thread, about Honey, are also intimidated by horses who snort and blow, and don’t know how to read subtleties of behavior that differ from breed to breed. I just don’t think that applies to most of the people commenting on THIS thread.
As for your background, I am sorry I assumed you were a Saddleseat rider. I just saw some pictures you posted on this thread of you at a show with your horse, but maybe it was more of a breed show experience, and not actual Saddleseat riding. I’m admittedly not knowledgeable about that discipline. I have done hunters, jumpers, dressage, eventing for years, as well as some western, and even tried playing polocrosse at one point (I sucked and that was short lived), and I have a tiny bit of experience driving… but no Saddleseat experience. I do agree, this board is dominated by people who do H/J, Dressage and Eventing.
And as for the comment about Saddleseat riders LOOKING brave… again… I think we are having challenges communicating. Which was why I said I had a confusing time interpreting that comment.
I did nothing of the sort. I have always qualified my statements as a possibility and pointed out how even a simple behavior/action can lead to things going wrong when a beginner rider gets over faced and stressed that this rider was consistently using language that indicated that was happening or expressing concerns of it happening. I have done nothing more than offer up stories of my horses and my experience as an example. Since I am a timid rider/handler myself, I was expressing how even simple behavior can be seen as intimidating or inadvertently lead to to an accident for horse or human in inexperienced hands.
I fail to see how suggesting I should stick to recommending mechanical pony rides in front of the grocery store as anything but dismissive and insulting of my experiences. If my experience was at all rare I could see your point, however, it’s not.
That was a Saddlebred Hunter Country Pleasure class. Breed show thing. That’s what they look like - totally different from “regular” hunters which is a topic for a different day. Was surprising to me too.
The assertion was that displays of interest (not about Honey, about ASBJumper’s horse) were evidence of the horse not displaying calmness. Though there have been many posts woven together, that’s what I was responding to with approximately 99% of what has been said over the course of yesterday and this afternoon. We had moved FAR away from the topic of Honey and were speaking more generally after a few of us who were having fun talking about our goofballs got attacked for our horses and their “poor” behavior.
I assumed that perhaps people were unaware of what a lot of them are like since there were some really wild statements in those posts. Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe a lot of what I’ve said didn’t need to be said shrug.
Plenty of people, from beginners to totally advanced horse people, have unwittingly bought horses who ended up having unanticipated holes in their training or undisclosed soundness and behavioral issues.
It happens to people when they go horse shopping on their own. And it happens to people when they use a trainer, but the trainer steers them to buy an inappropriate horse for any number of reasons.
There are hundreds of posts in these forums involving these sorts of stories. Probably thousands.
I think it’s important to let the OP know that if this is the situation she has found herself in, she shouldn’t feel ashamed or embarrassed. It happens to tons of people. And she has done a good job so far with this horse, and she shouldn’t feel obligated to drain her savings account and ride through behaviors that she finds frightening if she is still seriously struggling with the mare. And there are lots of people on these forums who have experience and knowledge and can support her in terms of coming up with ideas on where to go from here, if she wants to talk about that. If she wants to keep on with this horse for awhile longer, clearly there are folks who strongly support that as well.
Whatever. I just hope that the OP has less stress and more fun over the coming months.
The initial portrayal was that of an anxious mother, whose daughter rode a horse that her trainer found suitable but that you did not, and that your daughter fell off. The rest of the details were filled in after my comment. I can see how it felt insulting, but what you portrayed in the comment wasn’t what you have expanded on. Now that I have more information, I have expressed nothing but sympathy and sorrow for it.
While it is NOT rare that a person can become overmounted, it is relatively rare that a horse is ruined to the point of needing to be euthanized because the trainer rides it a specific way. It DOES happen, of course it does, there are a variety of skills and abilities in trainers, people, and of course this cervical arthritis thing seems to becoming more prevalent. That’s really what I was speaking of. You’ve got a really unique situation in which your horse is suitable for no one. That’s not usually the case.
And again, of course there are horses purchased with bad temperaments or bad vettings, but it’s usually not the trifecta. You’ve hit them all.
You deserve it. Keep on keeping on, and feel free to post about your experiences over the next few months no matter which road you take with the horse. I think there are people who will support you regardless of how it turns out
That’s what they look like - totally different from “regular” hunters which is a topic for a different day. Was surprising to me too.