Could be - or it could be a foal of said mare that was never registered and that was something notable on the papers that he caught in the sale process. She doesn’t have any registered get according to ASHBA.
I found a few other Phantom possibilities but the registrations are not quite matching up in terms of color but there’s one with Peavine lines that might be a possibility. Color is often wrong in foals on papers (I own a horse that is black who is registered as a chestnut). I haven’t fully traced down the light lite variations, as there are a ton of them (more than 20+ pages). Man do people reuse horse names lol
You are amazing, @Alterration! The power of COTH, once again.
I’ve often wondered what happened to him – that was the last summer I worked there. The outfit was a bit rough around the edges (this was back in the day when putting John Q Public on the back of a horse and sending them off to ride steep mountain trails seemed like a good business model), but the boss took good care of his horses. I think he knew that Pal was a good 'un, and hope he kept him safe.
I know I have a nice photo of the two of us somewhere… if I can dig it out I’ll post it. Sorry for the hijack – but tripping down memory lane has been awfully nice.
I rode for an outfit like that just out of high school that had walkers as the mounts. I was AMAZED that you would just throw these random people up on these horses and go for a trail ride and by and large everyone was fine. The worst we had was a kid that didn’t prevent their horse from flopping down and rolling in the stream despite our guidance to pick him up and kick him forward.
Some of those horses were young (3 years old) and they’d just bip along with non-riders happily flopping around up there. I do think there’s something to the nose to tail confidence that the horses get because they weren’t easy horses out of that line.
I am glad horsekeeping and training (for both humans and horses) practices have evolved since then, but sometimes I think the scale has tipped a bit far the other way. That’s a topic for a different day.
I know, right?!? I look back at the way we stuck absolute novices on all kinds of horses and sent them up and down a mountain, and can’t believe that I don’t have a single exciting trainwreck story to tell. (Another great character was my boss’s wife, who sometimes led rides with her hair in curlers, wearing polyester pedal pushers and Keds with a ciggy hanging out of the corner of her mouth. She was awesome.)
Everything shared here has kinda reinforced how unsuitable the breed (per all these examples) clearly is for those not wanting to ride a dragon. Which is most of us new riders or reriders Imo.
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Since the OP expressly came to share concerns, twice in two different threads, about popping up/rearing, I get the impression she’s not a fan. So all the “this is what these horses do, for funzies” kinda isn’t helping… Is it?
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I wish I still had the video, but I bought my horse because a child who had been screaming in terror prior to riding him got on and he clocked around like a champ.
I’ve had him do pony rides and he falls asleep.
It’s sporthorse eyes that are scared of them. It doesn’t mean they are unsuitable. I had to adjust my eyes and my expectations.
There are very very few falls in saddleseat land, and they ride exclusively dragons. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a true injury with the exception of the horse that literally had an aneurysm in the lineup and fell over on a kid which is not the dragons fault - she died (the horse that is, not the kid). And I’ve watched hundreds of shows, and ridden ~40 saddlebreds.
Coincidentally - most saddlebred people think jumping is the most dangerous thing you can do with a horse and won’t do it. They think it’s stupid. LOL I have to bridge that gap the other way, but they aren’t wrong - I’ve seen a TON more injuries with people falling off of hunters and jumpers, and my friend was just badly injured by her warmblood dressage horse bolting when he was just being flatted around. I have NEVER seen that in saddlebred-land. Not once.
Ok but not falling off is a low bar.
I’m pretty sure OP doesn’t intend to do jumpers, or ride bolting Dressage horses either.
I fell off my first horse about three times in 24 years, that doesn’t mean there weren’t other moments that were hair raising.
I stuck with him because I was skilled, learning and not afraid of him.
OP’s not me. I would not suggest a fresh off the track tb for her, regardless of how freaking fantastic it turned out for me.
She’s also not you.
I just think you may be so enamored with ASBs yourself (and others) you’re missing what the OP came to ask for help with, twice… and her concerns.
Fair point (“She’s also not you”) – but frankly (and I think the OP knows this), no one that hasn’t seen them both in person is going to be able to give an opinion of value either way – even her trainer (who works with both OP and Honey) doesn’t seem to be black-and-white on the issue. (I think OP mentioned that the trainer said that Honey wouldn’t have been the horse she would have chosen for OP, but we all know that sometimes the horse works out just fine anyway, and other times, not so much.) If the OP is asking about popping up/getting light in front, I think it’s valuable information to say that in this breed, popping up is rarely a prelude to really scary stuff like flipping over, and that while the horse is hot and sensitive, hot and sensitive CAN live alongside levelheadedness in some horses. Only the OP can decide if this is not for her, but it is a perspective that adds to her information base as she’s deciding what works best for her and Honey.
No - I agree - she’s not me. Her story is just so much like mine that it’s worth exploring. And I’ve had lots of experience with non-saddlebred people screwing my saddlebreds up. Not a huge sample size - 2 horses that I own that sporthorse trainers really fudged up - but still
Just because I’m a fan doesn’t mean that I’m blind. I’m just someone with experience in both worlds - we’re relatively rare (and all on this thread apparently). I spent 30 years riding hunters and dressage horses. Had a bad fall that broke me so I didn’t ride for 5 years. Ended up with a 5 year old saddlebred because I couldn’t stop watching his video (not my most sane move).
Had to learn a lot. Learned that they are very different naturally than most other breeds I’d had experience with. Learned that things that were VERY SCARY to my sporthorse eyes didn’t mean the same things - aren’t the same warning signals that they are in sporthorse world. Had to learn that when he was up and snorty and weird I could still lead him in and he’d never pull on me or hurt me, unlike my QH in that state who would smush me into a wall if given a chance in that type of heightened state.
I would also not recommend a fresh off the track OTTB to @AdultEmmy, and I’ve worked with those too when I was younger, fitter, and braver. I also wouldn’t buy one for me right now - I’m out of shape and not athletic enough to keep up with one unless it were the type that was too slow to run and had been hacked extensively by the barn.
The behaviors that could be warning flags in a saddlebred are actually sulling up which most people would interpret as calmness. That’s dangerous. The propping usually contains some sort of forward motion and is a normal evasion (can be “whoo hoo” or can be “I don’t like what you’re doing”).
It’s not a true rear like you might get with a balking horse. And for whatever reason, balking saddlebreds tend to freeze solid not go up. My second saddlebred that came in after being screwed up by trainers does that. He freezes. He has never once lifted his forehand under saddle nor is he prone to bucking. He literally freezes solid. We’re working on it and I am not at present riding him until we have it solved. He came in and he was so sulled up that you couldn’t even lead him. We’re over that and leading/lunging ok but he is a trip.
Anyway - here I’m trying to be a balancing voice because of my experience in both worlds. As mentioned before, this is the second horse in as many years as @AdultEmmy has chosen that isn’t quite working out. I’d like to offer perspective and support before discarding another horse and continuing down that path. Edited to add: Discarding is a tough word and not entirely what I meant - I just meant moving on without enough time and help.
That all being true, none of us are there to see what’s actually happening, that it’s just her breed and not a problem of ___ (myriad things it could be).
Bottom line the OP has, twice over several months, various trainers, barns and other assistance, has returned to express her discomfort with this particular horse and her behavior.
Wether we think she can get through it, she hasn’t in nearly a year. If she can’t, if she doesn’t wish to, that’s ok and poo poo’ing her concerns because “this is what this breed does” ignores her discomfort. It’s not about what this breed does, it’s about what the horse the OP has is doing, long-term that OP is uncomfortable with.
How many times does she ask for help before we figure out maybe it’s just a bad match?
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To me, the smart thing for those of us who have more experience but are not there to see what’s going on is “please be careful, seek a pro who can help you, rearing is dangerous”
What I see in the pics shared by the
ASB fans isn’t rearing, per se, but certainly could be dangerous to an ammie, and certainly confidence shaking.
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Just another side of that coin.
Right, which to me suggests the best plan is the one she has: get honey ridden by pro to see how much of a (non) problem this popup/rear is and if it can be extinguished, do more diagnostics, take lessons on more suitable lesson horse who is probably more like the horse she actually needs in her life.
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All this “ASBs pop up, look how fun! I lived!” would have me less interested in having one than sticking it out, frankly.
But that’s me, older, more breakable, much more risk averse than I used to be.
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I didn’t disagree with that ever. What I started out explaining was that I disagreed with the people that were pearl clutching that it was terrible dangerous awful behavior and that she should move on and not even send Honey to a trainer. In fact, that’s one of the reasons I was such an advocate for her attending lessons in saddlebred-world, even if that’s not where she eventually ended up.
I would not suggest that anyone who was having an issue with a horse NOT take them to a trainer. But - I am exceedingly cautious now about which trainers I select. Just because one is good with other types of horses doesn’t make them the right trainer for this horse. It’s a huge caveat.
Would you ever ride one who has a mild kick out or buck? Not a major break in half type of buck, but a mild kick out when you put your leg on or start a canter? It’s pretty common, at least in my experience, with QH/WB/TB types (which are more common in sporthorse land) that they do that and the remedy is (typically) put your leg on.
The props in saddlebred land are exactly the same and mean many of the same things. It’s just the front end vs the back end. That’s all.
If not - I get it. We all have things we tolerate or won’t ride. But I think if AdultEmmy had come here saying “she kicks out a little when I put my leg on her” she’d be getting vastly different advice.
I also want her to get good help. But I want to make sure that the help she gets has some experience with Saddlebreds or understands them.
The difference is not asb to non asb. It is beginner vs experienced. You yourself say you were experienced beforehand. You are not in the same boat.
@AdultEmmy needs a horse to learn on, not a horse that needs training.
A school horse who does not react if she is not an expert with reins, legs or balance. This does not have anything to do with breed. It has to do with the training of the horse. She has limited funds. She wants to enjoy riding. In her own words she said that, Honey does more than just pop up and at the moment without really being asked to do any thing.
She has a been there done that horse that she can have lessons on. ‘Do not spend good money after bad’.
I was experienced yes, but out of shape having not ridden in several years with bad PTSD. I think AdultEmmy rides much better than I did at that point in my life, having seen the video clip of her lesson. I was a clutchy, out of shape, terrified, mess. Absolutely terrified. Gayle once said in a clinic, I love your smile up there, and I gritted out “I’m terrified, it’s a grimace”.
I digress…
While there is certainly an ideal world where we all get extensive lessons on school horses who never put a foot wrong before we progress, that is not reality for many of us, especially not in the US anymore. School horses are becoming a rarity as we lose the lesson barns that we used to have. There isn’t one barn in my whole area that has school horses (if they have them at all - most of the dressage barns do not) that doesn’t want you to quickly move on to your own lease or purchase and they aren’t the affordable horses. Lease prices, without actual board, are around $20k/year. And I’m not sure if you’ve tried to buy a BTDT perfect horse lately but they are rarer than hens teeth right now and twice as expensive.
Even so - would I have advised her to buy this horse right away? No. I’d have given very similar advice - find a place to take lessons, get solid first if you can. But AdultEmmy already HAS Honey. She’s got a horse, and it’s her second buy in two years. So now, finding a way for her to learn safely as well as do right by the horse becomes a priority. Now we have to care for BOTH entities.
So - having her find a trainer that understands these critters so they don’t screw up the horse, reassuring the owner that she didn’t pick a horrible horse and that she CAN learn to ride it, and getting her qualified help with people who understand the nature of these horses is important.
This type of horse is just as inappropriate for where this OP is as a horse popping up because it’s sensitive and “feels trapped”. It’s not a fair comparison. The issue is that you keep giving advice to “just do this more advanced riding thing” and your problem will be solved. No, of the horse is popping up because it feels the OP is trapping it at the mounting block and walk, then the OP doesn’t have enough feel to not keep trapping the horse while trying to push it forward. And that can certainly cause the horse to actually rear.
My horse is ruined and my kid could have been seriously injured (c/t spiral fx + head trauma type of concerns) because the instructor we were taking lessons with put a very beginner kid on a horse (Arabian if it matters) that kicks out and has a mild buck. Horse hopped, kid came off, loose horse chased mine and my kid. Plus the kid that was offloaded quit riding all together. A kick out can be just as big of a deal as a major buck under the right circumstances or with the wrong rider.
Today went well! My trainer started with lunging, not to burn energy but just to focus. Honeys brain starts in a million places. Then she did some long lining, helping her bend and change directions. Then she got on with no drama and did it a few times just to be sure. The mounting doesn’t seem to be dramatic anymore, but she sometimes moves too fast away from the block after you’re on, so she practiced having her stand still.
Then she did a lot of walking on a relatively loose rein, changing directions, Etc. neither of us have trotted her in a bit, but honey was relaxed, trying to stretch a bit, and feeling supple (so says my trainer), so she did some trot work and even changed directions at the trot (a sometimes troublesome problem for her) and honey did a great job. She just tried to stay consistent and give her space.
I’ll note, and I’m sorry I don’t remember who suggested this earlier, but we had the bridle on with a rope halter over it, and the reins were going to the halter. We think she seemed happier, so we will be trying bitless.
Overall honey did great! I did get some video but I’m still deciding whether or not to post it. I signed myself up for this forum, but my trainer didn’t sign up for it.
My lessons going forward may be on honey. But my trainer is more interested in putting me on a few other horses to have fun and rebuild some confidence. But the way I understand it is that Honey will mostly be working with Taylor. And I’ll do some learning on the side.
Oh g-d yes… though my experience is with Morgans. If they are unhappy, they let you know, mostly politely. My experiences with QHs have been that they are shut down, until they aren’t, and then they explode. And because they’re often trained differently, something I did with no thought on Feronia, like pass a dressage whip over her neck to switch hands, caused a bucking fit in a QH.
Ha! Not really relevant to the thread but that reminds me of when I spooked my mount in Ireland by taking off my raincoat and hanging it on a fence, something I do on my own horses with barely a thought. The crusty old man who ran the barn got a bit cross with me for being surprised at that. Meanwhile I was thinking, “Hmm the ditches and the walls and the cars are all in a day’s work, but flapping raincoats are where Irish horses draw the line??”
