Honey the ASB update and progress thread!

[AdultEmmy]

This is where things get a little sticky. I appreciate both of your opinions and am taking them to heart-- This is the first ride on her since her last “lesson”. And it lasted all of maybe 5 min.

The reason I say it’s “sticky” is because we have the OK from my vet for this. And I do feel like I’ve been doing well at being patient. I havent ridden since…early July I think? And that was just get on, walk, halt, off. It’s also “sticky” because I was actually told by the old owner last week that she wasn’t really that bad, just weighs a little less than she’d want to have sold her and she was gonna take her to a show the next weekend if I didnt buy her Obviously we all see how she arrived, but it is messing with my head a little because on one hand, I see this scrawny thing that just needs more lunging and food, etc. And on the other, I see a stronger Honey, with vet clearance and being told that walking her, and maybe occasional trot for a minute, would be good for her.

So I’m good to be patient-- We wanted to mostly just work on mounting block and will she stand and be cool for it. So aside from that, there isn’t anything that I specifically want to work on under saddle with her. I want to keep doing groundwork, lunging for stretch, or lunging over poles, and going from there. It sucks not to ride, but my last horse had some KS, and the last thing I want to do is make Honey, who shows no signs of being sore, any back pain. But the conflicting opinions and the fact that horses seldom have a “Right” and “Wrong” answer, is giving me a lot to chew on.

Hopefully, as I’ve tried to say before, this isn’t coming off as defensive. I hear you, and I appreciate you. I’m just trying to figure things out over here.

I’m also new to side reins. What would be the advantage of them over my equiband?

Oh additionally, I’m not going to continue riding at that barn with the fancy lesson horse. It gave me good info, but even in talking it through with my friend-turned-trainer who is friends with the woman I lessoned with, we didn’t find it to be valuable because my lesson started about an hour and a half after the scheduled time, and she was talking to tons of other people during my lesson, so I didn’t even have her full attention.

Honey is off from any work tonight. I’ll just pop by and give her “soup” and maybe a quick little groom, and I’ll be going to Pilates. I gotta work on myself, too. =]

As always, thank you. I’ve got a lot to think about and am learning, rapidly. Even reading my way through “Discovering the Work” by Kathleen Lindley Beckham.

[AdultEmmy]

Out of curiosity-- has anyone here tried the muscle max bars?

[AdultEmmy]

Also, maybe I need to open this up to a discussion on nutrition, as well. Currently, she is on Tribute Kalm Ultra. We tried Kalm & EZ and she wasn’t a fan, and Nutrena Proforce Fuel she never touched. And 1x a day she gets a soup of beet pulp, molasses, and alfalfa pellets.

Maybe I should consider adding a higher protein ration balancer like Nutrena Empower to the mix?

[Dressagelvr]

This horse shouldn’t be worked in any way or fashion for a long, long time. Don’t even set a saddle in her poor, weak back.

Want a timeframe? I’m gonna say 6 months from today. Minimum. Why? She’s emaciated. As others have said she is not physically capable of work. Any work burns calories that she doesn’t need to burn.

You seem like a kind person. It’s good that you saved her, but only if you put her needs first.

Let any idea of “training” her leave your mind. Once she gains her weight and is physically capable of training work, I recommend you send her to a good, kind professional for 90 days.

You don’t have the experience to train a horse and will only confuse her if you try. The blind leading the blind is a very bad thing for you both.

Hang in there. Be patient. Wait. Groom her, love on her, but stop trying to work her.

If you follow this advice, you’ll get your dream horse in the end.

[endlessclimb]

I’d put her on Fat Cat if she were mine.

I’m going to leave the other bits to other people - I have mixed feelings on this. If you let her go on and on with no work, she will not develop any muscle at all, and will instead just be “chubby”. If you work her too hard, you’re asking too much.

I think in the middle lies the balance. Lots of head-relaxed walking over varied terrain (pony or leading), a mild lunging program focused on posture, and very occasional riding - I agree that it will be 6 months + until you’ll be able to ask her for anything “real”. But I disagree that no training can happen between now and then.

[BatCoach]

You are being so thoughtful and I know you really love this mare. All I will add is that no horseman anywhere ever regretted going slow and steady with a new horse.

My experience is with OTTBs, not saddlebreds, but carefully and slowly building that topline is paramount. You may not have ridden her in a month, but others have. You have only had her for about 45 days? That is a drop in the bucket in her lifetime of ownership. She is 14, so it is going to be like peeling an onion as you get into the retraining process. You’ll discover what she does and does not know, and any and all quirks accumulated her her lifetime of handling. Its a wild adventure - so take your time.

FWIW - I would not go on the word of the previous owner since that person’s horsemanship is so poor that they well willing to try to show an under-weight and under-muscled horse. This is not someone I would listen to.

Good for you for not returning to the saddlebred barn. You gleaned what you could, but there is no excuse for a trainer to treat you like that. Maybe there is a different trainer in that world that can be helpful, but they have to treat you with respect as a paying client too!

There are so many great ground work exercises you can do that are more than just lunging.Lunging is great, but it is hard on an out of shape horse. She if that friend of yours has experience with side reins. They can be a useful tool in the right hands for a horse to learn to work into contact, but they should only be used in the right circumstances. Google Jec Ballou - she has some good ideas. https://www.jecballou.com/trainingtips/fitness-through-groundwork

Nice walks over varied terrain while you are not asking for much contact would be fine undersaddle - but she’s showing you that trotting in a circle while carrying a rider is really hard for her right now. I’d set her up for success with more groundwork and bonding first, then incorporate varied undersaddle work.

I love that you are doing pilates too! The more we learn about our own bodies and how or muscles work, the more sympathetic we become as riders - getting in shape is hard!

[Jarpur]

To build muscle, a former trainer of mine (R dressage judge and clinician, with a varied background, has worked with all types of horses, including Morgans, gaited etc.) advised me to lead or lunge my greenies over cavaletti at the walk.

Her opinion was that removing the momentum that a faster gait provides was superior at building muscle. I followed her suggestion, and saw results within weeks.

[AdultEmmy]

@Jarpur

To build muscle, a former trainer of mine (R dressage judge and clinician, with a varied background, has worked with all types of horses, including Morgans, gaited etc.) advised me to lead or lunge my greenies over cavaletti at the walk.

I just introduced this a few days ago!

@BatCoach

You are being so thoughtful and I know you really love this mare. All I will add is that no horseman anywhere ever regretted going slow and steady with a new horse.

Thank you so much. I really do love her and am trying to do right by her.

@BatCoach

FWIW - I would not go on the word of the previous owner since that person’s horsemanship is so poor that they well willing to try to show an under-weight and under-muscled horse. This is not someone I would listen to.

completely agree. I’ll see what experience my friend has with side reins. But we also really want to work on her backing up, head down, haltering, bridling, etc. So we have plenty we can do!

@endlessclimb

I’d put her on Fat Cat if she were mine.

Just ordered! So hard to find–it’s out of stock everywhere!

@endlessclimb

I’m going to leave the other bits to other people - I have mixed feelings on this. If you let her go on and on with no work, she will not develop any muscle at all, and will instead just be “chubby”. If you work her too hard, you’re asking too much.

I think in the middle lies the balance. Lots of head-relaxed walking over varied terrain (pony or leading), a mild lunging program focused on posture, and very occasional riding - I agree that it will be 6 months + until you’ll be able to ask her for anything “real”. But I disagree that no training can happen between now and then.

Thank you, this is sortof where I’m at too. I’m trying to find that balance.

I’m honestly a little shocked/sad to hear that it may be 6+ months. I guess in my mind I thought 3 or 4. But I want to be sure to give her what she needs.

[endlessclimb]

Fat Cat put a bloom and muscle like none other on every waify TB I’ve put it on. I hope it works as well for you and Honey!

[AdultEmmy]

I hope so too, thank you!

[findeight]

@AdultEmmy

I’m also new to side reins. What would be the advantage of them over my equiband

Had to look up exactly what they were calling Equiband. All these gadgets and systems have been called by many different names and been around forever, often DIY with bungees or plain old clothesline. Anyway, not now, maybe later if she has trouble tucking up behind…right now it would force her to engage unused muscles that aren’t ready to engage. Looking at pictures of the “equiband system”, with additional lines from the bit, really looks like a variation of what we called “hock hobbles” in the Western world 40 years ago.

I like loose side reins that are very gradually tightened as they ask the horse that has been going under saddle to use muscles that are already partially conditioned in a way that is continued when transitioned to a regular bridle with no major equipment modification.

So, former owner would have shown her that weekend if you hadn’t bought her? REALLY? Shes not the worst I’ve ever seen but…that’s not something you take to off the property to show off your skills. Thats nuts.

Maybe give it a few more weeks or another month at least and see how she does. otherwise not going to tell you what to do…but better to wish you didnt have to wait then wish you had taken just a little more time.

Oh, never be afraid of honest discussion and disagreement on here. Its part of learning.

[AdultEmmy]

My equiband doesn’t have anything that attaches to the bit, but this is good to know. Also, she already offers a great stretch, so I haven’t been sure if the equiband is really worth it right now. I’ll definitely ask my friend about side reins and see if she has any experience with them and can show me what to do.

@findeight

So, former owner would have shown her that weekend if you hadn’t bought her? REALLY? Shes not the worst I’ve ever seen but…that’s not something you take to off the property to show off your skills. Thats nuts.

lol, yeah. I’m not trying to cause any drama with her or anything, but I find it absolutely insane. And honestly, what would she even show in that would look good or be competition worthy? She was telling me a bunch of wild things. I was just trying to focus on the facts.

@findeight

Maybe give it a few more weeks or another month at least and see how she does. otherwise not going to tell you what to do…but better to wish you didnt have to wait then wish you had taken just a little more time.

This is a solid point. I’ll definitely wait-- I’m not afraid to be told that I’m wrong or need to be patient or anything like that. It’s certainly a bummer, but I’d rather her be happy and healthy than rush it. I just thought we might be a little further along than we are.

But honestly, I think a lot of our issues will be solved by building a relationship. So this is a good thing.

[findeight]

Also, IMO, she needs some type of regular work to help build muscle and balance as well as do something meaningful with you. Lunging is not yahoo time but an opportunity to work in the bridle, saddle too (stirrups run up and secured or removed), minus the rider but with human control. There are a number of good videos out there and many in any discipline know how, when and how much. Bet your friend does.

Unfortunately many don’t know or think they know but don’t…due diligence.

You could start lunging without sidereins if you can. Wear a watch. 5 min each way at the trot to start. No more, thats plenty for her right now. Keep going, no stopping. Harder then you think when you keep them going.

[endlessclimb]

An equiband with side reins is waaayyyyyy different than hock hobbles.

That said, I wouldn’t put her in an equiband OR side reins just yet. That forward button has yet to be proofed. Start there, and I second the walk cavaletti. Add to that a solid “head down” cue, then combine into “head down while going over cavaletti.” When all those things are solid, then I’d put the equiband on for 10 minutes of “walk with your head down while doing cavaletti.”

And before anyone states the obvious, I am aware that “head down” doesn’t mean “engaged hindquarters”. This horse physically can not engage right now, but she can sure put her head down and un-hollow her back a bit, which is a start.

[BatCoach]

I believe this is what the OP is talking about.

Equiband: what is it and how does it work? - Horse & Hound

I have not heard of hock hobbles, are these them? what do they do?
https://avilaproshop.com/shop/hock-hobbles1

[findeight]

You run the reins thru a surcingle (or lowered stirrups) and attach them to the hock boot rings. The idea is tying the head to the hocks creates a low side to side pressure to unlock a stiff poll. Have also seen the reins hooked on to a wide butt strap just like that Equisizer strap instead of a hock boot.

You asked…

[Posting_Trot]

I think someone may have mentioned this book upthread, but it’s so good, it deserves another mention:
Jec Ballou’s 55 Corrective exercises for horses

https://www.doversaddlery.com/55-corrective-exrcses-for-hrs/p/X1-34149/?gclid=CjwKCAjw8symBhAqEiwAaTA__I9ojpa3-lxefFToNOT7QdcSGxZ47Y443SOyTnO7aWTNXhXfj7fyvRoCWi8QAvD_BwE

It’s a terrific book with lots of in-hand exercises as well as undersaddle that help to build the horse’s physical condition back up.

[ASB_Stars]

First off, congrats on getting yourself one of the best breed in the world. I am only slightly prejudiced!

I am going to say, without arrogance, that I have probably started more ASB sport horses-- especially those who started out in the show world (so that’s re-starting) than most people. So, please listen. Do NOT use any of those ridiculous toys on this mare. She doesn’t need to learn to back out of a bridle; she needs to learn that she can go forward, and stretch down, and feel great. You can do that by simply longeing her correctly, and, if you have someone who can teach you, she needs to long line, I’ve said this many times here on COTH, but caveletti are your FRIEND! You need to use them correctly, but they will help her stretch down, balance, and raise the base of her neck and work over her sacral area.

TIME is your friend. The first time someone told me that it would take a year to put a topline on a horse, I laughed. Then, I learned. You can make HUGE strides with correct work in three months, six months, etc. But you will reap the rewards of patience and correct work in a year. It’s worth it.

She needs lots of good groceries. They fill out the holes on the inside, first, and then you see the outside improve. She was pretty poor when you got her, and she’s better- be happy!

Best wishes on your journey.

[luvmyhackney]

@ASB_Stars

So, please listen. Do NOT use any of those ridiculous toys on this mare. She doesn’t need to learn to back out of a bridle; she needs to learn that she can go forward, and stretch down, and feel great.

Can I like your post a 10000 times.

All of this. Just get weight on the horse first.

[SillyHorse]

@ASB_Stars

Do NOT use any of those ridiculous toys on this mare.

The Equiband is not a ridiculous toy; it is extremely helpful in helping horses build strength. My veterinarian “prescribed” it for going back to work after a stifle injury.

That said, I wouldn’t use an Equiband on this mare until she has gained a lot more weight and is ready for strengthening work. I agree with the posters who think you should not be riding her at all yet. Give her some more time.