Honey the ASB update and progress thread!

[ASBJumper]

Oh I highly doubt this horse will ever be “chubby” LOL… But I hear you.

You make a good point - it’s hard to get a horse muscled up without work. Which is why a bunch of us suggested a good lunging/long-lining program with poles/cavaletti. The key is to work her in a manner that will encourage her to stretch and work over her back as much as possible. She can lunge her for hours a week for months on end, but if the mare goes around with her head in the air, back dropped and tense, nothing much will happen except she’ll have great lungs and some butt muscle, possibly.

And as far as hacking at the walk - that’s great… for other breeds. I tried that with my looky, alert Saddlebreds too and quickly found out that it’s the furthest thing from relaxing/topline building because they spent the entire hack with their heads in my lap, gawking at everything (not in a spooky way, just… looky/alert), with occasional snorts and scoots, and their backs were rock hard and dropped the whole time. Didn’t matter if i floated the reins at them - head and neck remained in my lap.
So i personally scrapped the idea of hacking as part of a young Saddlebred’s training. At least at first, I started back up when the topline muscle and the balance were there.

@AdultEmmy - I totally get your back-n-forth’ing on this. But the vet’s recommendation could very easily not be taking into account the breed’s tendencies, and when suggesting low-key walking and some trotting, is probably picturing a stock horse or a warmblood or anything else walking along in a long, loose relaxed frame, which absolutely WOULD be ok… but that’s not how Honey is going - she is inverted and is using her head and neck to “brace” under the weight of your friend (who is indeed a lovely rider, btw, so no slight against her).
Even 5 min of that could undo any positive work you’ve achieved over the week…

Wanna know how drastic the effect can be? I’ve had situations where my mare got startled by something while being massaged and just the act of spooking in her stall, dropping and holding in her back and having her head in the air for … 5-6 seconds, maybe…?.. made her tense up so much that my EMT had to do her back all over again.
A lot of vets aren’t familiar with Saddlebreds and their unique challenges/strengths. I once had a vet tell me my horse should be dead lame considering the extent of an injury - the mare was sound as a dollar (vet confirmed this as i was handwalking and was gobsmacked). Vets often underestimate how tough/stoic our breed is.

So anyway, I totally understand your dilemma. Do what you wish with this info. Either way it’s obvious you want to do right by the mare, and that’s half the battle.

[findeight]

I would listen to ASBJ here. She has actual experience training and retraining ASBs and what she says makes perfect sense. I learned something about their unique needs here that is different then types I restarted or reconditioned.

Get some help with correct lunging, bag the side reins, learn to long line, ask around for help with that. Get a good body worker familiar with ASB issues in the back.

Keep us in the loop too.

[swmorse]

I’ve been following and haven’t come out with any suggestions since I’m a very infrequent poster and mostly post funny stuff.

ASB_Stars last post has the advice I would listen to. I’m in the camp of putting more weight on her at this point. If you feel you must so something, I’d long-line instead of lunging with side reins.

Here comes the comment I’ve been wanting to scream every riding post I’ve seen. Please ride the correct diagonals and make sure anyone who rides her uses the correct diagonal. Diagonals are very important. They build up the muscles on each side, give the horse’s back a rest, help on corners. People freak out over correct leads, but (at least the Saddlebred vids I’ve seen since I started watching them again) don’t seem to care about diagonals. Quite a few years ago, a dressage trainer who was working with a friend of mine told me ‘we don’t care about diagonals, they’re not important’ - not true.

I know the incorrect diagonal is ridden when doing the victory pass, as you are in the down phase which makes the picture look good. But the posting around using only one diagonal makes me crazy.

[SillyHorse]

@swmorse

… and make sure anyone who rides her uses the correct diagonal. Diagonals are very important. They build up the muscles on each side, give the horse’s back a rest, help on corners.

Hear, hear!

[findeight]

Credit where credit is due

Its ASBJumper here. ASB Stars is a long time poster but not the same poster.

[Sparrowette]

@findeight

I would listen to ASBJ here. She has actual experience training and retraining ASBs and what she says makes perfect sense. I learned something about their unique needs here that is different then types I restarted or reconditioned.

Get some help with correct lunging, bag the side reins, learn to long line, ask around for help with that. Get a good body worker familiar with ASB issues in the back.

Keep us in the loop too.

I need to second this. ^^^

@ASBJumper knows what she’s talking about.

[Jarpur]

I agree about long-lining. Same trainer/judge I mentioned above taught me to long-line decades ago, and that is what I do. I find it much more useful than lunging.

[Alterration]

Late to the party

I’ve used Hygain feeds successfully on my saddlebreds, including one that came in all angles and thin. As well as unlimited hay. That’s absolutely a necessity for these guys. For reference, my 17h ASB that leans toward thinness and came in super-under muscled and scrawny eats 6 lbs of Hygain Showtorque per day, plus around 1 lb of Tru Gain and as much hay as he can eat. His topline, even without work, is acceptable. I haven’t found many other weight gainers that work, but good solid feed and hay is the key.

I would think of my ground-work as in-hand work. I do a lot of Straightness Training with an undermuscled horse. I think Jec Ballou’s exercises are useful, as well as really any in-hand work you can get your paws on. You’ll know when she feels ok on the ground when a circle feels like a circle and not like some weird wobbly egg/diamond/polygon shape - it will feel very smooth and you’ll notice her inside hind stepping well below the middle of her body. When she can bend around you without being too saddlebreddy (nice even bend, not Gumby-necked in a false bend). Essentially I start it by asking them to lower their heads and then shifting the weight back by asking them to “almost” back up, and then I ask them to walk around me holding onto that nice lowered posture, focusing on the hind end, trying to get them to step further underneath themselves. That’s what truly creates the bend.

Walking around on a loose rein is completely counterproductive, but you CAN walk on a rein asking these guys to stretch. I taught mine to stretch down and forward when I squeeze and release one rein. Then I do a lot of walk work under saddle, asking them to do shoulder in, and circles, alternating light contact with stretching down and forward. It depends on Honey’s natural balance, but I don’t think walking is horrible under saddle IF you can get her to stretch. Again, I’d do serpentines, circles, spiral in and out at the walk, shoulder in etc. Set up cones and do different spirals around them. Be careful of getting the neck too short.

She’s not so skinny that I’m horrified that you have a saddle on her (I’ll be the slight voice of dissent here). But she DOES look the rangey way undermuscled ASBs can look - and they look way worse than other breeds in this state because of the way they are built, especially if you aren’t used to the long slender neck, and if you’re more accustomed to the warmblood or even TB build.

I generally don’t longe one first that I trust to walk under saddle (read: the quieter already broke sort), but I’ll do the in-hand work first. Sometimes saddlebreds have learned that longing is a time to play, and that’s very hard to get rid of - especially if they were in a show barn where they didn’t get a lot of freedom.

When I do start longing, I do a lot of smaller circles on the longe, almost using it as a single longer rein rather than a longe line. Spiral in and out at the walk and trot is particularly useful. I save true longing and double longing for a horse that is a little more balanced. Otherwise you’re just…going in circles burning off useful calories. At her age, I’d be cautious of the torque on the limbs. Again, if she’s had any saddle seat training, the double longe is going to have a very specific meaning to her, and it’s counterproductive to what you’re trying to do.

Carrot stretches and butt tucks are good for her too - often these sorts have some pain in the SI if they have never traveled correctly. Get a good Chiro or masseuse to show you how. Not hard to do.

I’m also going to say, while getting help with her is useful, I think you need to be very careful about who you get help from. I would not send her away to a dressage trainer. Not even one with ‘experience’ with hotter breeds. I’ve tried this with 3 different saddlebreds and it has not worked at all. The last saddlebred I got was given to me because ‘qualified’ sport horse trainers had screwed him up so badly they wanted to put him down. He’s now under saddle again and successfully walking and trotting.

I think it’s far better for you to learn the skills you need and invest in those. Horses can learn anything, but we’re the ones that need work. I say that with all the love in the world - we all work to be worthy of our horses. Saddlebreds are very forgiving and they really will do anything for their people, you won’t screw her up as you’re learning. Take a deep breath, and if I can be of any help let me know.

[Janet]

@findeight

Credit where credit is due

Its ASBJumper here. ASB Stars is a long time poster but not the same poster.

ASB Jumper has made a number of posts on this thread. But ASB Stars also made a very good post (approx post 317).

[RHdobes563]

That picture looks photoshopped. Yes, models are VERY thin, but I don’t think this would go over well on the runway, no matter what.

[skydy]

I don’t think the picture is photo shopped. I think I’ve seen it before. The model was an example of the anorexia that was accepted and killed several models. There was a backlash in the fashion world and while extremely thin models are the norm, the full blown anorexic appearance isn’t.

[AdultEmmy]

@Alterration

I say that with all the love in the world - we all work to be worthy of our horses. Saddlebreds are very forgiving and they really will do anything for their people, you won’t screw her up as you’re learning. Take a deep breath, and if I can be of any help let me know.

Thank you. So many great points in here and I really, really appreciate your kind words. I’m sure I’ll be reaching out, soon. 🥹

[AdultEmmy]

Hey all!

There have been so many posts that I’m not even sure where to begin in replying. But please know I’m hearing you (seeing you?) and your opinions and thoughts are not falling on deaf ears.

For example: she now gets her hay on the ground. Huzzah! Also, fat cat has been ordered (though it’s tbd if it actually ships. It’s out of stock everywhere)

We walked over cavaletti’s today, in hand. She did a great job with it. I think even more importantly today, she was a gem about letting me put ointment on her cuts on her face. No fussing at all. Also I haven’t seen any new ones since I started her on the Zyrtec.

I apologize for my silence. I needed a night to myself (Pilates) and to get a little space from the thread, because I struggle to not feel like I’m a bad owner if I make mistakes or disagree or anything like that. I know nobody said I was, but I tend to feel very all or nothing feelings, and I was feeling like I was failing her. Now that I’ve got some space for a day, I feel better.

Anyway, here’s the daily dose.

[endlessclimb]

Girl, you’re doing fine. And honestly whichever advice you try, it’s going to be fine. Some things work for some horses that don’t work for other horses. That’s why we all have a little different take - all of our toolboxes have been shaped by the horses we’ve worked with.

And guess what? None of those horses have been Honey.

Differences of opinion are normal in the horse world. Give something a try for a couple weeks or a month, if it ain’t workin’ ditch it and move on to something else. No harm, no foul.

She looks so much better, and you’re a great owner.

[swmorse]

Please don’t feel like a bad owner. You are a great owner. Your willingness to put yourself out here and ask questions is what makes you one. Take what advice resonates with you and Honey, change it up if it’s not working and continue to enjoy your wonderful new horse.

I love going along on your ‘ride’.

[Paisley_Pony]

Echoing @endlessclimb and @swmorse. You’re doing a great job! Rehabbing a horse is a process, and you’ll both learn a lot together along the way. Each horse is unique - if it wasn’t, this would be easy.

[findeight]

You are a much better owner then most. Because you are seeking knowledge and willing, the fact you are asking makes you a good horseman. Remember, its only what you learn after you think you know it all that counts. Don’t be afraid to fail, just recognize it when it happens, figure out why and change it. Don’t get stuck with things that are not working.

There is no all or nothing in horses (or life in general but that’s another discussion). Each horse is an individual as are all of us and hands on experience is the best teacher…you get that by doing it. You are well on your way.

Have to say, in these last pictures? That is one correctly adjusted halter. Good job

ETA Ohhh, almost forgot. Do give yourself a break mentally and physically, never apologize for that. You and Honey does not need 7 days a week every week. Take at least one day a week away from the barn, maybe even 2 days. Know you have other demands on your time and you don’t want to burn out…and you will if you aren’t careful. Horses sense your moods plus can get bored with over drilling, they need time off too, especially older horses.

The Pilates night is great and so is skipping a day if you just can’t for whatever reason. What worked for me for decades is rotating serious sessions between 3 and 4 days a week. Week 1 is Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Week 2 is Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Week 3 rinse and repeat Week 1 and so on. Might visit on “off” days but no tacking up or training. Groom and hand graze.

Schedule like this gives you freedom to schedule appointments, plan a movie, dinner, etc.or just relax without feeling guilty or losing progress. Keeps you fresh and positive.

You are very fortunate you have what looks like a very well managed, trustworthy barn so you don’t have to supervise closely

[Sparrowette]

@endlessclimb, @swmorse, @Paisley_Pony, and @findeight are all right.

You certainly ARE NOT A BAD OWNER!! Read that again and make sure you accept it into your soul.

The fact that you are going all over trying to get the best information you can get to help your mare, testifies to the fact that you are a good owner.

You want to know what a bad owner is? Go look in “off course” at a thread called 2Raw2Ride Social Media.

That yahoo, when he was starting his “journey”, was offered good info and one-on-one help from accomplished and knowledgeable longriders but he just decided he would do whatever he wanted. Now the two horses that he got involved with him are suffering and probably will never be what they could have been. At this point, he’s been stopped by authorities, but we don’t know what will happen to the poor horses.

That’s a bad owner. That is not you.

[Ghazzu]

Put 5 horsemen in a room, ask a question, and you’ll get 7 firm opinions.

You are doing a good job.
You are a terrific owner.
Take a deep breath, file the advice for future reference–you never know when a previous suggestion will be a useful answer to a training/management problem down the road, even if it isn’t right now.

[AdultEmmy]

@swmorse

I love going along on your ‘ride’.

=) Thank you!

@findeight

Have to say, in these last pictures? That is one correctly adjusted halter. Good job

ha! I was hoping that would be noticed! Thank you. I definitely have a great barn, and do take days off to just go brush her, or just graze her or something. I like being with her and she is the light at the end of the work day. So even though I’m there every day–we definitely are not working every day. I think tonight in fact is just ladies night for Tacos and Margs at the barn. Definitely not working with her if that’s the plan =]

@Sparrowette

You certainly ARE NOT A BAD OWNER!! Read that again and make sure you accept it into your soul.

Thank you so much! Oof I’ve heard about that 2Raw2Ride situation. It’s terrible.

@Ghazzu

Put 5 horsemen in a room, ask a question, and you’ll get 7 firm opinions.

You are doing a good job.
You are a terrific owner.
Take a deep breath, file the advice for future reference–you never know when a previous suggestion will be a useful answer to a training/management problem down the road, even if it isn’t right now.

Solid points, thank you!

Thanks to you all for helping me feel better. I appreciate you.