I watched a bit. Didn’t see anything that bothered me any more than people posting on a horse’s mouth, or draw reins, or twisted wire snaffles, or western pleasure classes, or tack nosebands, or horses living in stalls 23 hours a day with 3 hours turnout a week in a dirt paddock.
[QUOTE=tinah;7537319]
I watched a bit. Didn’t see anything that bothered me any more than people posting on a horse’s mouth, or draw reins, or twisted wire snaffles, or western pleasure classes, or tack nosebands, or horses living in stalls 23 hours a day with 3 hours turnout a week in a dirt paddock.[/QUOTE]
you need to watch a little more then.
I’m one minute in, and I consider it abusive.
ETA: By 2 minutes in, the horse is being whipped for doing nothing. He has no idea what is expected of him.
At 2:41 the horse falls and people cheer.
At 4:40 the horse is tied so that he can’t move, and they are STILL hitting him! By this point, he almost certainly has damage in his neck, and a lifelong phobia of humans.
By 5:30, he has a bit in his mouth, and they’re hitting him in the face with a saddle pad as he stands terrified.
By 6:45, the horse is flat out on the ground. I’m sure he has given himself up for as dead.
I have two masters degrees, and I have no idea what they want the horse to do or why they are hitting him at 7:05.
At 7:56, they have a chain across his nose, and I’m sure they don’t mean to use it gently.
By 8:35, the horse isn’t even standing up straight.
At 9:00, the horse is standing, numb with fear, and they are beating him.
By 9:15, a rider is on him. He looks as likely to collapse as buck. I now understand why they call it “breaking” a horse.
By the end of the video, the horse has probably received more than a hundred lashes with absolutely NO cause and effect. Just random lashes.
I don’t care whose culture it is, and neither does the horse. 
If we tolerate that because it’s someone’s “culture,” we FAIL.
On the other hand, the person who filmed and posted this is clearly chastising MR for not doing something. The person filming didn’t do anything either. Honestly, had I been there, I’m sure I wouldn’t have done anything either (besides throw up). No one person was going to walk in there and stop this.
But please don’t excuse it and say it’s someone’s “culture.”
ETA: I’m going to have nightmares about this tonight. I am all in favor of keeping a horse at pasture; but to compare this to stalling a horse is just nuts.
ETA: Yes, it’s horrific. I don’t care what country it’s in or whether Americans do whatever. It makes this no less horrific. Ask the horse how his day was.
I agree, they are “breaking” the horse (literally).
What a good horse that is. If they would have tried this with my TB she would have broken them! :lol:
When I see men doing this to a horse it makes me glad I’m a woman. I just don’t get this macho attitude. Maybe I’m just lazy, but it seems like too much work to beat a horse into submission. I’m also not into rope burned hands, broken bones or brain damaged, broken legged horses. The whole thing just seems counterproductive.
Maybe Monty was observing and got a chance to show them how he does it later. Since he was in a foreign country he was probably trying not to tick off the natives. After all, they’ve been “breaking” horses like this since forever… Maybe he got his point across.
I just watched this. Absolutely piss poor “training” technique that has no place in this day and age. Way too many better methods have been learned to condone this old school one. Do they have to have him broke by tonight because this horse is needed tomorrow to work? No. They are doing it as some sort of demonstration. It is simply a vehicle for them to be abusively macho while being cheered on for it. That horse is mentally screwed up, and very likely will be branded as being ‘loco’ one day.
There are some great horsemen in the Latin cultures. These men aren’t it.
The video was taken in Brazil. For several years Monty has been making a “full court press” there to spread his message. Parelli has also been quite active. I don’t know about any other “gurus.” Both have been courting the ABCCMM (the Brazilian Marchador registry with 350,000 registered horses).
I know a couple of folks who have been “courted” by Monty. They took a look, then rejected his approach. The Brazilian horse culture is quite old and not particularly “touchy-feely.” Tradition is very strong. Stallions are the primary riding horse (as is common in many Iberian based horse cultures). Mares are for breeding; geldings are pretty much unknown. This means that the Iberian rider has to have a stronger motivation and higher skill level to maintain effective control of their mount. This also means that stallions are trained pretty “rigorously.” The “fluff-bunny” approach so common in the U.S. is a shortcut to failure if you’re working in a stallion-riding culture.
Riding, there, is also the domain of two major groups, the wealthy and the cowboy. Brazil has not, traditionally, had a strong middle class. That’s been changing for the last decade or so but in most places you’ll find riders to be from the more monied families or from rural areas where horses still have jobs. If you follow the PBR you’ll know about the large number of Brazilian riders and very high skill levels they show. The Festa do Peão in Barretos, São Paulo State is one of the largest, if not the largest, rodeo in the world. I understand that after the rodeo events are over they “deck” a big part of the arena with temporary flooring and dance 'till the wee hours of the morning. For about 10 days. 
http://www.brazilmax.com/news.cfm/tborigem/pl_southcentral/id/62
I’ve had several people I know down there write to me and ask me about the American trainers coming down there to spread their particular gospel. I give them my take assuming I know something about them. I also refer them to sources on the 'Net that I find trustworthy in discussing individuals and their relative skills and approaches.
The Iberian horse culture has been around for at least a couple of millenia. For a gringo to show up and start telling these people they’ve been doing it all wrong for this long period of time is almost a definition of “uglyamericanism.” Or maybe just cultural chauvinism. In any event I hope the Brazilians revoke his visa and send him home. Or maybe just back to England.
G.
It is SO disturbing to me that several posters fail to recognize the abuse in the video - wow, not a good way to start my morning.
The horse is repeatedly WHIPPED, beaten, yanked with a chain etc
He seems like a saint of a horse and does not even kick out, fight back or buck.
What has this world come to??
I guess if you want a broke(n) horse here’s one…
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7537692]
The video was taken in Brazil. For several years Monty has been making a “full court press” there to spread his message. Parelli has also been quite active. I don’t know about any other “gurus.” Both have been courting the ABCCMM (the Brazilian Marchador registry with 350,000 registered horses).
I know a couple of folks who have been “courted” by Monty. They took a look, then rejected his approach. The Brazilian horse culture is quite old and not particularly “touchy-feely.” Tradition is very strong. Stallions are the primary riding horse (as is common in many Iberian based horse cultures). Mares are for breeding; geldings are pretty much unknown. This means that the Iberian rider has to have a stronger motivation and higher skill level to maintain effective control of their mount. This also means that stallions are trained pretty “rigorously.” The “fluff-bunny” approach so common in the U.S. is a shortcut to failure if you’re working in a stallion-riding culture.
Riding, there, is also the domain of two major groups, the wealthy and the cowboy. Brazil has not, traditionally, had a strong middle class. That’s been changing for the last decade or so but in most places you’ll find riders to be from the more monied families or from rural areas where horses still have jobs. If you follow the PBR you’ll know about the large number of Brazilian riders and very high skill levels they show. The Festa do Peão in Barretos, São Paulo State is one of the largest, if not the largest, rodeo in the world. I understand that after the rodeo events are over they “deck” a big part of the arena with temporary flooring and dance 'till the wee hours of the morning. For about 10 days. http://www.brazilmax.com/news.cfm/tborigem/pl_southcentral/id/62
I’ve had several people I know down there write to me and ask me about the American trainers coming down there to spread their particular gospel. I give them my take assuming I know something about them. I also refer them to sources on the 'Net that I find trustworthy in discussing individuals and their relative skills and approaches.
The Iberian horse culture has been around for at least a couple of millenia. For a gringo to show up and start telling these people they’ve been doing it all wrong for this long period of time is almost a definition of “uglyamericanism.” Or maybe just cultural chauvinism. In any event I hope the Brazilians revoke his visa and send him home. Or maybe just back to England.
G.[/QUOTE]
Ah, sorry.
While I found this display not ‘horrific’, I do find it pretty senseless.
Just because ‘it’s a stallion’ (machismo right there, can’t bear to part with the jewels) does really not mean you have to beat the everliving tar out of them to ‘train’ them.
I am far from touchy feely, but that was just a stupid display.
And like somebody else mentioned, you can’t treat any horse like that. Kind of like the TWH issue with soring…any other breed would take your head off or kill itself in the process.
It can be done better. Just because we have always done it this way is no reason to continue. Monty might be a snake oil salesman, but he actually is a horseman (unlike PP) and he isn’t all that touchy feely either. Why have 5 guys beat on a horse when you only need two and non of the physical assault?!
BUT IT’S A STALLION…urgh, blech…having seen 140 stallions worked at a state stud, in public, I dare say it’s not needed.
Knowing that 90% of the horses in circuses are stallions, I doubt they are beaten into submission…I don’t believe that just because it’s ‘iberian’ culture it is needed.
not to mention there are enough aficionados of Iberian breeds around the world who believe they need to keep the balls on the ride who do not break their horses…
Bogus excuse.
There is always room to make things better.
Unbelievably DISGUSTING!
There is a special place in hell for these people!!
I kept hoping that horse would just double barrel the guy whipping him right in the head.
The real issue I had with the methods used, was that the horse was not the least bit rank - just clearly had absolutely no idea what the handlers wanted from him. I have handled rank babies, and certainly never used anything remotely like these methods.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7537692]
The “fluff-bunny” approach so common in the U.S. is a shortcut to failure if you’re working in a stallion-riding culture.[/QUOTE]
That’s not to say that such crude horsemanship is needed in order to ride a stallion. The fault would be in the culture not the approach.
I think MR should get some credit for attempting to dialogue with these folks. Lets face it, nameless internet know-it-alls grousing about how evil other people are is pretty ineffective.
You don’t like how those folks do it? Well then, why don’t you get yourselves a plane ticket and go talk to them?! It is pretty easy to sit at a computer screen in a far away land and condemn someone. If MR is floating around over there attempting to introduce some other way(or sell his schtick, however you want to put it,) then he at least gets credit for putting his money where his mouth is.
A poster with TWO Masters jumps to a conclusion with NO clinical proof that the horse has neck damage.
Hitting the horse in the head with a saddle pad is called “sacking them out”
Nighmares??? Oh my…
The posts by Solace and Guilherme are not supporting that method but they are explaining why it occurs due to a difference in culture
The horse is NOT a partner in a huggy kissy relationship. There is no idolation of the horse just for being a horse.
This is a rule of dominance and that is the method, developed over centuries that has proven effective “for them”
The horse, if used in the bull ring, must be subdued mentally and be willing to proceed with the riders demand despite its natural condition to run from the danger. This same philosophy continues to other endeavours of use. It is dominance…
While the story of Joey…War horse…was a wonderful and touching movie, it was also NOT reality of our culture regarding the horse in war or conquest. From times of the crusade, the horse has only been a mode of transportation, a shield, a meal, for the rider when we engage in war.
Study the war of native nations…it was not just to steal the horse…IF there was an attack they tried to kill the horse under the rider thus rendering him neutral.
I would not expect Mr. Roberts to be critical in a negative manner. He could, without insulting his host, demonstrate HIS method…neither as right or wrong IF ASKED…
One learns, quickly, when travelling, to pick their battles with great care. Especially in regard to the treatment of animals, women or religion.
I mentioned one time, in a slaughter discussion, that many of the workers were or Catholic faith and they did not believe animals have a sould THEREFORE what happened to them, or how it happened was of little to no consequence.
You would have thought I was attacking the Pope. Cother’s because THEY were Catholic and loved their animals accused me or religious hatred.
I was merely reflecting a view and a fact…not for all Catholics…but for some…
I do not think Cothers would be very happy with the treatment of horses or donkeys in M.E. countries.
Beasts of Burden…no more…no less…
Doesn’t make it right…but it is a reality…
MR and his counter parts can only introduce change by example…not condemnation
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7537692]
The video was taken in Brazil. For several years Monty has been making a “full court press” there to spread his message. Parelli has also been quite active. I don’t know about any other “gurus.” Both have been courting the ABCCMM (the Brazilian Marchador registry with 350,000 registered horses).
I know a couple of folks who have been “courted” by Monty. They took a look, then rejected his approach. The Brazilian horse culture is quite old and not particularly “touchy-feely.” Tradition is very strong. Stallions are the primary riding horse (as is common in many Iberian based horse cultures). Mares are for breeding; geldings are pretty much unknown. This means that the Iberian rider has to have a stronger motivation and higher skill level to maintain effective control of their mount. This also means that stallions are trained pretty “rigorously.” The “fluff-bunny” approach so common in the U.S. is a shortcut to failure if you’re working in a stallion-riding culture.
Riding, there, is also the domain of two major groups, the wealthy and the cowboy. Brazil has not, traditionally, had a strong middle class. That’s been changing for the last decade or so but in most places you’ll find riders to be from the more monied families or from rural areas where horses still have jobs. If you follow the PBR you’ll know about the large number of Brazilian riders and very high skill levels they show. The Festa do Peão in Barretos, São Paulo State is one of the largest, if not the largest, rodeo in the world. I understand that after the rodeo events are over they “deck” a big part of the arena with temporary flooring and dance 'till the wee hours of the morning. For about 10 days. http://www.brazilmax.com/news.cfm/tborigem/pl_southcentral/id/62
I’ve had several people I know down there write to me and ask me about the American trainers coming down there to spread their particular gospel. I give them my take assuming I know something about them. I also refer them to sources on the 'Net that I find trustworthy in discussing individuals and their relative skills and approaches.
The Iberian horse culture has been around for at least a couple of millenia. For a gringo to show up and start telling these people they’ve been doing it all wrong for this long period of time is almost a definition of “uglyamericanism.” Or maybe just cultural chauvinism. In any event I hope the Brazilians revoke his visa and send him home. Or maybe just back to England.
G.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for posting the real information, in context, for the benefit of the pearl-clutchers. Having ridden a bunch of South American polo ponies in my day, I can tell you the Iberian methods produce a “good usin’ horse” a lot less likely to end up on a killer truck than some “started” by a confusion of new age sweetness. Their horses lead, tie forever, stand to be mounted, have brakes, load, and ship as a rule with no nonsense.
As someone who once experienced an epic fail with a Lusitano via the “English” approach, and who has also seen way too many fluffbunny-trained evergreens with either zero ground manners, unrideable, or both, may s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.
What do you think all those “whisperers” who get combat pay are doing to straighten out your rogue, after you’ve taught him he’s the boss? 
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7537824]
I think MR should get some credit for attempting to dialogue with these folks. Lets face it, nameless internet know-it-alls grousing about how evil other people are is pretty ineffective.
You don’t like how those folks do it? Well then, why don’t you get yourselves a plane ticket and go talk to them?! It is pretty easy to sit at a computer screen in a far away land and condemn someone. If MR is floating around over there attempting to introduce some other way(or sell his schtick, however you want to put it,) then he at least gets credit for putting his money where his mouth is.[/QUOTE]
Do we know what the upshot of his visit was, or is it still an ongoing project?
[QUOTE=Fairfax;7537886]
A poster with TWO Masters jumps to a conclusion with NO clinical proof that the horse has neck damage. [/QUOTE]
If by accident my horse were tangled in a rope, and experienced what that horse experienced at 4:40, and then a week later, I was experiencing behavioral problems, and I posted on here looking for advice . . .
I can assure you I would get a dozen replies that he needs chiropractic treatment and treatment for ulcers. Possibly even stall rest or a season at pasture to just be a horse. Then someone would suggest clicker training. If he turned violent in his fear, someone might even suggest I put him down rather than pass him off to another home where he might injure someone. Or that I retire him and feed him for the rest of his life, asking nothing more of him.
Double standand.
Not something I could take part in or barely watch.
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7537824]
I think MR should get some credit for attempting to dialogue with these folks. Lets face it, nameless internet know-it-alls grousing about how evil other people are is pretty ineffective.
You don’t like how those folks do it? Well then, why don’t you get yourselves a plane ticket and go talk to them?! It is pretty easy to sit at a computer screen in a far away land and condemn someone. If MR is floating around over there attempting to introduce some other way(or sell his schtick, however you want to put it,) then he at least gets credit for putting his money where his mouth is.[/QUOTE]
I did go to Brazil and see what they do!!!
Lest there be any confusion, I don’t condone abusive training practices. I specifically do not comment on any particular item in the video.* My comments were limited to Monty and his attempts to sell his particular program.
As in any horse culture there will be substantial variations in competence between venues. The best places we visited were neat, orderly, and disciplined. So were the horses, mostly stallions under saddle, in these venues. Mares in regular work were rather rare. Unless they were being prepared for show competition (or some other specific purpose) they were not in regular work.**
Stallions are also routinely turned out together in pastures.
The Anglo-American equine culture sees few stallions in regular saddle work. Many regular disciplines/activities prohibit them. They are not welcome in any hunt field I’m aware of. They are banned from most large scale trail rides. I can’t remember a time when I saw mares and stallions in the same ring together in a rail class. So your Mark I Mod 0 rider in the U.S. has no idea what it takes to manage a stallion as a reliable saddle horse.
I noted that stallion training was “rigorous.” That is not to suggest cruel or abusive. Stallions as a class possess strong temperaments. They require a firm and knowing rider.
G.
*There is a very active FB discussion and many Brazilians are not at all happy with how they see some of their countrymen treating horses in the video.
**In the Marchador breed horses are inspected at not less than three years of age for conformation, temperament, and gait. If they pass they are branded and their get/production can be registered. Many mares never see a saddle after the inspection.
While I can agree with much that has been said, I have no idea how the stallion thing has to do with this conversation. I used to gallop and break racehorses for a living, and while the stud colts - I say “colts” but we had plenty of well seasoned campaigners - usually required a more firm a hand, I never had to beat one without cause. The horse in that video looked so confused, and I found myself cheering for the horse, saying “kick them!” We regularly galloped and worked - and even trail rode - colts and fillies together, and again, never had to bloody one up…and these were racing fit Thoroughbreds.
I am happy to hear that Brazilians are speaking up against such cruelty. Custom or not, it doesn’t change what it is. Heck, Bull Fighting is a custom in mexican culture, but it’s still cruel.
I saw a comment somewhere else, that MR had his own cameraman - I guess the guy that you can see filming close to the horse, in a few parts? - and most likely he did it to show how “training” is done in other parts of the globe, to shed some light?
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7537952]
**In the Marchador breed horses are inspected at not less than three years of age for conformation, temperament, and gait. If they pass they are branded and their get/production can be registered. Many mares never see a saddle after the inspection.[/QUOTE]
So next we will raise a ruckus about the workplace discrimination against mares…
