Horse Abuse and Marieke Slik

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

Not related to this particular distressing video, but as a more general question: DD and I were contemplating what discipline of horses, if any, is acceptable these days.

Times have definitely changed. I have clear memories of being in riding lessons 40 years ago, and if the horse did something perceived as deliberately naughty, the trainer would impatiently yell, “Get after him for that!!” which generally meant slap him on the butt with the crop a couple times. Am I correct that would not be regarded as acceptable nowadays?

Do we believe horses ever act deliberately naughty, perhaps because they are lazy or find it easier to run out than to go over a jump, or whatever? Or do folks think what appears to be misbehavior is always caused by pain or confusion?

Is it possible with horses to only use positive reinforcement, or are there times when corrections are necessary? If so, what type of correction is appropriate?

Please note: I’m not defending the videos in this thread, especially hitting a horse in the face. I’m asking more general questions simply to learn the current “best thinking” on how to correct or prevent misbehavior, recognizing that things have advanced far beyond the “norm” when I was a horse riding kid.

Thanks for sharing thoughts and insight!

[OverandOnward]

@Bobby7

Kate Conover rode the horse the day before and couldn’t get it around. Kate did not do anything wrong at all. Then Morgan Parasher rode it the next day in the video that was posted. I thought the video was awful personally.

What video is this post referring to? It’s the Slik video being discussed in this thread, is that right? Or no? Lost the line of the discussion comments on this post.

[Red_Dust]

It is the common consensus that for an animal to ‘get’ the connection to their action the reaction has to be swift and immediate. So when the steed is being naughty right then and there, not later, when he is in the barn. not five minutes later, heck, even 5 seconds later can be too late.
So in case of the video, the moment to ‘get after’ him would have been as he turned away.
Had she not parted ways with him.

However, what is seen as abusive depends largely on the audience. Some folks deem it abusive to use a harsh tone with Mr Steed, So the mere act of swinging a leg over is seen as cruel by some.

However, we have come further in understanding how the equine mind works. Although I think we have swung the pendulum to the other side, assuming everything has to be pain related vs simple pilot error.

[Red_Dust]

I believe it was referring to a video long since deleted from SM. Unrelated to the topic.

[Alterration]

Times have definitely changed. I’m also of the “over, under or through” generation. We were taught to get after a horse if they stopped or slowed on the way to a fence. But we know a lot differently now.

I am not of the “everything is pain” belief. While many many “misbehaviors” are the result of pain, many are the result of miscommunication between the rider and horse, and some are just horses being horses.

Horses come from a completely different frame of reference than we do. They see incredibly differently, they hear differently, they are completely different than we are mentally and physically. For instance with the horse in the video I highly suspect vision had something to do with his spook and ducking behavior due to the visible shadows coming off of the trees and all of the movement between the leaves in the background.

Horses are wired to get along with the herd. It’s one of the things that makes them trainable at all. But of course they are sentient beings with their own preferences and feelings. So “misbehavior” can be the result of the horse having a different preference and having learned that a behavior gets them to that preference more quickly. Timing is absolutely crucial with them. Reward or release at the wrong time and you’ve got a challenge on your hands.

Regarding punishment, I know I don’t use that training quadrant very often. It’s reserved for aggressive behaviors like biting or kicking. And I know that if I’ve had to use it, I’ve missed about 40 signals before that moment and while I have to remedy the situation, it was my fault for missing it up front, except in very very rare cases. Horses are very subtle communicators and we can miss their warning signs so easily.

Which is what makes this behavior from this rider more egregious- not only was it unfair but it was poorly timed and done out of sheer retaliation. It served to do nothing other than frighten the horse, leave him with a few bruises, and show him that humans indeed are not trustworthy.

[ladipus]

Exactly my thoughts …as someone who commented on facebook pointed out that this horse is a “problem horse” and has been through several trainers …you would think you would be riding more defensively and not perched on top of, pinching with your knee and floating the reins

[ladipus]

Agreed …and what’s not seen at least on the video circulating on fb is that after she catches the horse when he decided to run off after getting beat in the face …once she caught him she hit him more

[Alterration]

Poor guy.

If she’s a pro, where is this horse’s owner? Does anyone know where the horse is at this juncture?

[findeight]

You know, some horses just do not want to jump for whatever reason. Abusing them for it just makes them hate the sight of a jump even more. Many of us have seen that in horses all the way up to GP+ from riders ranging from bratty kids to JAWS to some recognizable names you would think would know better.

This one is attractive enough he could be pointed at something else but that will knock a zero off the price they need for ROI and the all mighty dollar wins yet again.

[Whoaovergo]

He was on the market earlier this year as a dressage horse by another barn and stated he is over jumping in his ad.

[comingback]

If I have the right horse (and I’m pretty sure I do), he’s had a pretty decent record up to the last year or two and at some big venues. Makes you wonder what’s changed. Poor guy. No excuse for clocking a horse in the face like that.

[kirbydog]

or trying to find out what the “problem” is, and not showing and jumping until you figure it out

[ladipus]

Someone close to the source of this Pro messaged me privately yesterday after I commented on it on facebook…apparently this horse was bought for six figures for a child and had been through several trainers previously for being difficult…said Pro was advised not to take this horse on but supposedly was trying to help the client/owner.

[kirbydog]

Didn’t do much to help the buyer. If I was that client, I’d be super pissed. What a silly, immature thing for that trainer to do
In the meantime, somebody needs to get to the bottom of the behavior, or this poor horses life will just get worse

[Demerara_Stables]

@Whoaovergo

He was on the market earlier this year as a dressage horse by another barn and stated he is over jumping in his ad.

This line of mentality drives me crazy. Just because a horse “doesn’t want to jump” (says who?) doesn’t mean it’s automatically suited for dressage. Proper dressage requires a lot of strength and soundness on the horse’s part. I wish people would actually figure out what’s wrong with a jumping horse instead of saying “oh it doesn’t want to/can’t jump, so it’ll make a great dressage prospect.”

/Rant

[findeight]

@Demerara_Stables

horse “doesn’t want to jump” (says who?)

Much bigger names than I but I said it here. There are many reasons, some fixable. But quick fixes, gimmicks, over working, over jumping and over facing, anything to get it sold start many down that road, beating them makes them less likely to ever get over that dislike of jumping, seen some that won’t even go in the ring with a jump or the telltale person standing beside a jump.

There was a thread on here last fall some gal had a gorgeous grey import that came with a pack of lies about its past, made me think of this poor guy. Stuck in the dealer hell vicious circle,

[Demerara_Stables]

@findeight

Much bigger names than I but I said it here. There are many reasons, some fixable. But quick fixes, gimmicks, over working, over jumping and over facing, anything to get it sold start many down that road, beating them makes them less likely to ever get over that dislike of jumping, seen some that won’t even go in the ring with a jump or the telltale person standing beside a jump.

Yes, I know that exists and have seen it.

But not investigating why (maybe this horse did in fact have a full work up, none of us know) a horse doesn’t want to jump and then just selling it on as a “dressage prospect” happens quite often and doesn’t do the horse any favors.

[findeight]

That would be on the trainers who get paid to advise people on what horses to buy and why they should buy them. Some don’t know what to do or just want it out of their barn whatever it takes. Others would consider it waste of billable time to research the why part.

[Whoaovergo]

I mean I’m not really sure what you want from people. I have a horse that doesn’t want to jump, he’s quite happy being a dressage horse. I have no idea this horses circumstances and I’d rather people say “horse doesn’t seem to love the jumping job but has been happy working on dressage” than try and sell a horse for a career it clearly doesn’t want?

[Night_Flight]

And it doesn’t necessary mean the horse can’t jump due to physical issues.

I switched a beautiful hunter over to dressage because he was super spooky. It made him jump very cute, but he hated jumping new things at horse shows even though he was happy jumping at home over known filler. It was just frustrating for him and for his rider to go to a horse show and have 7 out of 8 beautiful fences and then a stop or a good look needing a strong non-hunter ride. He wasn’t happy competing over fences, but he loved the predictability of the dressage ring that looks almost the same at every show.