I thought I did, but it’s twisted into something it’s not.
Thanks for your confirmation, though?
Actually you failed to miss that I have been using a chain and have done a lot of groundwork with him etc not just cookies etc. I am also not just focusing on past trauma but I do look at things holistically as well. (apparently some fo you cant read my posts and just continue to state the same thing over and over) Yes this horse must have come with this behavior and I dont think it showed up to me until after the barn manager at the first place was apparently hitting him etc. and then we moved and it showed up to me first hand. Again I am not new to owning horses or dealing with problem horses but this was a specific unique situation I had not dealt with before (inconsistent bolting with no warning).
I am a firm believer in proper and consistent groundwork which is why these behaviors caught me a bit off guard when they would pop up in situations that had not been an issue before (ie the first time it happened was on the lunge and he had been lunging fine with me for months). Also he has never tried to kick rear or bite at me, he just runs away never into me or another person.
Bottom line at this point is I have gained some good info from a few of you and I appreciate those of you for being kind and understanding and helpful. I am going to move on from this thread now as its just become as frustrating as my horses bolting…
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Agreed. The OP seems pretty knowledgeable and practical and is doing the best she can right now with a challenging horse.
She came here looking for additional insight and ideas, and this thread is actually super educational with lots of useful advice.
Anyway… as you said… horses are individuals. I’ve known a few draft crosses who were REALLY cool horses… but seriously challenging at times. As someone said earlier, they are not all “gentle giants.” It sounds like the OP got a cool horse who is great 90% of the time - but when he is a challenge, he’s REALLY hard.
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Thank you and yes my mare is a draft cross-belgian tb and she is amazing-but I had her since she was 4 and instilled good foundation. this draft clearly did not get the same great start and I am seeing these holes in his training and doing my best to fix them.
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Keep it in the back of your mind, too that maybe there was something your HORSE was doing that caused some rough handling that your friend witnessed the back half of.
Bolting, perhaps.
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The thread needs a stud chain. Or maybe an iron halter. Or a sharp correction and redirection. Or maybe a leather popper on the butt, while spinning it in a small circle.
If all else fails, a knowledgeable person can use a chifney bit on the thread. But that’s a strong tool. Not for everyone.
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actually it became very well known recently that he was abusing several horses behind closed doors and some were sent to the vet and a case is pending…so yeah I am pretty sure I should have paid more attention especially when my horse would start getting nervous when he would come around and talk to us while I was on my horse (he started to snort and blow and back away from him) this only happened when he was around us and after I found him sweaty in his stall one evening not eating and the barn manager trying to laugh off what happened and not giving me the whole story…but thats a long story for another post…needless to say I got my horses out of there fast.
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Yes, that is the tool. It is shown incorrectly here, the lead rope is correctly attached like a lunging cavasson, on the top of the nose. It is shown incorrectly in this picture. Some people who sell stuff don’t know much about what they are selling. When the lead rope is attached on the top, it tips the horse’s head towards you automatically, if the lead rope becomes taunt. And when the horse tips his head towards you, the pressure is instantly released. Should the horse tip his head away from you, in advance of bolting away, the pressure is instantly in place to negate that option. Obviously… not a tool for a beginner, or for a person with a bad temper. But with a horse with an issue about bolting, or overpowering the human with sheer strength or size (as some drafty types who have been badly managed or trained previously)… it works, avoids a bolt and resulting injury to horse or human and gives the opportunity to give praise for correct behaviour… giving to pressure with a horse who otherwise may NOT do this, using his strength against the human.
They are indeed hard to find to purchase. I found mine in a dressage supply catalog (I forget the name of the catalog now), called a “mannering halter” for warmblood horses. I found that amusing. It was shown upside down, like this one above. An iron worker could probably forge one on order, if the size of the oval was known. It was not expensive to buy for me, a nylon headstall like the one above.
Yes, you can use them as a lunging cavason, if you have a horse who needs one for that.
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Thanks so much for explaining it in detail, and confirming that they are showing it incorrectly.
It sounds like it might be a very useful tool in the OPs situation.
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Yes I have looked into this before but needed to understand how to use it better before purchasing so this was helpful to read. Thanks
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I agree with this.
And VERY much this and this is where my next comments were going too haha.
I would encourage OP to drop any expectations of this horse other than getting the bolting under control. Do things to help establish trust and build a relationship. Sit/groom in his stall with him, sit with/groom him the pasture. Find some situations that you don’t have to lead him and remove that stress/worry for you both. Give him time to settle, trust his home, and trust you. Find a way to interact with him without you (or him) worrying about bolting. Remove that as a factor. That doesn’t mean ignore the boiling behavior, but you really have to have a strategy for that. I don’t say this to imply its going to fix the bolting as I suspect this horse has your number on that. Go back to the start with everything. If he isn’t the horse for you and needs to be moved along, the bolting needs to be addressed for that as well.
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I like the way @NancyM describes the pressure and release factor working with this tool. Stud chains are great… but if you are leading a bolting horse, things happen fast and it can be hard. With a big horse, leverage is everything and having that ring on the front of the nose will give you much more control… kind of like you have with a proper lungeing cavesson.
The older I get, the more I appreciate good tools that help make the whole issue of pressure and release much more straightforward and accurately timed. If that makes sense.
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That’s ok too. We all have different “allowable” limits. Whatever they are, consistency with them is key.
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Just FYI I already do this (I spend time with him and always have both grooming or just sitting with him etc, loving on him or just being with him in his comfort places). I do this with all my horses.
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Mine is a Wels cavesson (used in the Spanish riding school). It has a metal core but is padded and covered in leather so not as severe as the other device. But it works really well when a large horse tries to run through their shoulder and take off when you are on the ground. It is very neutral - it only comes into play when they pull and then there is an instant release.
This reminds me of something that really resonated with me when I was watching an Arthur Kottas clinic. A rider was having a problem with a spooking horse that was blowing her off. He said “The horse must love you, but the horse must also trust you and respect you. If the horse does not respect you it will never trust and love you”. That made me think about how I was handling my horses.
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I had a similar situation happen with my horse last year. The main barn worker got intimidated by him & he knew it. 2 other horses in the barn also did the same & suddenly all 3 needed chains to be brought in & turned out. When he would get nervous she would shank him & it would just make it worse. It got to be that she would just shank him in certain areas (like right before coming into the barn), to make him “pay attention & be good”. So then he anticipated getting shanked with others when he approached the barn.
He can be very strong (16.2 TB) and he has gotten away from others in the past. He did try it with me but I held onto the end of the lead rope (with a nasty rope burn, but thank goodness there was a good knot at the end of the rope).
She is no longer there and with some time none of the horses need chains anymore. Things that worked for my gelding were good consistent handlers who did not shank him for no reason. He definitely lets you know when he is getting worked up. The person working at the barn now just stands with him if he is anxious at the gate until he calms down to come in. Also if I bring him in (not frequently as I’m not usually there when he comes in) I have noticed that if I place my hand on his neck while leading it calms/reassures him - it also gives me a lot of feedback about his current state, like if he is getting more worked up or calming down. He absolutely picks up on the attitude/nerves of the person handling him.
He is also one I would never leave by himself in cross-ties. He doesn’t panic so much as he knows he can break the cross-tie. He will lay on them until they break & then walk away, especially if they are the cross-ties in the barn aisle. He’s 95% reliable in a wash-rack cross-tie. But he will never be a horse I walk away from in cross-ties without someone there to have an eye on him.
Good luck with your boy. Consistency is the key and making sure everyone that handles him knows what you are doing to work on the issue & that they are on-board with it. It’s a losing battle if others are handling him & they are not able to follow through like you do.
This is not so much advice, but a technique that I have used when faced with a lesson horse with some problem or another (and so far nothing so bad as you have been dealing with.)
Many years ago I introduced the lesson horses I ride to the Back on Track poll cap. The horses seemed to like it, at least no horse has told me it is unacceptable (they do not turn into giraffes usually when I put it on after the first few times they wear it.) One day I was talking with my riding teacher wondering why these horses, most of them hard bitten lesson horses or horses dumped at her stable, did not seem to mind this poll cap. At least three horses have sent a little “video” to my mind of their halter breaking OR when for whatever reason they slammed against the halter when tied, with a very quiet subtext that the poll cap made their poll feel better.
Another horse we had limited history. He was STIFF behind the saddle, and it took a lot of riding in 2-point at first during my 30 minute rides to get his back relaxed and “swinging”. I was discussing this with my riding teacher and one day I got a really brief mental “video” of the horse landing from a jump into water, with his hind legs slipping out from under him to one side wrenching the muscles of his loin. I asked my riding teacher if she knew if he had been used for 3-Day events and he had been many years before.
This was when I discovered the Back on Track stuff, first I got him the saddle pad then I got him the exercise sheet. I had to use a LOT of 2-point when I rode him for many months, then gradually I could reduce the amount of time I spent in 2-point until he got to the point that most of the lesson horses were at–I did not HAVE to ride the first 5-10 minutes in 2-point to get his back “swinging”, he started swinging his back from the first step. UNTIL his owner (who did a partial lease to the stable for using him as a lesson horse) decided one fine day to take a dressage lesson from a 15 year old girl who had some dressage lessons. This undid all those months of work I put into this horse to get his back loose and swinging, and his owner changed stables before I could get his back swinging again. I was miffed, all my many months of good work had been undone in one hour.
Some day when your horse is relaxed ASK him why he bolts. Empty your mind. You might get a short video in your mind. It might give you a hint of what could work, or it might not. The lesson horses I ride seem to appreciate that I ask them what is wrong, but it still takes me riding them consistently (or putting the poll cap on every ride) for improvement to happen and keep on happening.
Sort of woo-woo, I know. No guarantees either, because–horses.
Squared.
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Sure he may be tense and anxious when somebody handles him. But every time he bolts and gets away he is being rewarded for his behavior. And if you remember Psychology 101, behavior that is intermittently rewarded is harder to extinguish than behavior that is rewarded every time. It is not punishment that will get rid of the behavior, it is stopping the reward for bolting. Which is getting loose.
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Please find a trainer who specializes in groundwork and get help. One of my friends had a horse that used to bolt periodically while being led. Not a pain response, but the knowledge that he could get away. He hurt her multiple times and it was a small miracle that he never hurt himself or anyone else badly.
Edited to add: Once you find a good trainer, have them work with the barn staff so that your horse is handled consistently in a safe manner.
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