Horse bolting inconsistently while being led....need advice

[staciemac13]

Hi-I need some advice (I have searched this topic extensively but havent found a similar exp to the one I have with my horse). I have had my new horse for almost a year and we have had a bolting in hand issue start in the last 6 months. While I don’t know his past very well. He is 9 gelding (16 hands) and a draft cross (told clydesdale/qtr but not sure).
When I first got him home (he moved from Florida to montana) he was very well behaved on the ground-almost afraid to make a mistake I would say. He would always walk behind me and if I stopped he abruptly would stop as well (almost a little like he was afraid he was in trouble). IF he saw something he was nervous about he would just either stand like a statue until I could coax him forward or just kind of jump to the side (but never went far or felt like he would take off). I was able to take him to a poker ride and a clinic without any bolting issues but then apparently it started with the folks working at the barn when they moved horses am/pm from turnout to stalls ( in groups of 3-4 horses). When I found out the barn manager was being too rough with him (apparently chasing him and beating on him) we changed barns but I am fearful the damage may have been done or resurfaced previous issues from his past-see below

Fast forward a few months to now having the following issues:
-started to bolt in hand when being led or lunged (only to the left) when he was previously fine being lunged
-he was previously fine to go out on trail alone and since changing barns (two times) he has become more herd bound but it can be inconsistent (the last barn is where the regression really started and it was a noisy place with very little turnout and inconsistent hay)
-we have learned he doesn’t do well on alfala and will get more anxious and have loose poop so he is on straight timothy right now
-the bolting is inconsistent and he will do it even with a chain around his nose or in his mouth (using positive reinforcement has worked occasionally but not fool proof)
-we have tried doing liberty and while this def helped our bond it has not solved the problem
-we have tried working in the area he bolts to and then trying to make the place I want him be the place of rest
-some things we have noticed that may contribute-it tends to be worse when his gut is off or he is not feeling well, it also seems to coincide with his left side that feels stiff that direction and we know from xrays has some arthritis between c4-c6 (we have plans to get that injected shortly)
-he never tries to kick, rear or bite or run into me as it clearly is a fear response and wants to go to his “safe place” which is usually other horses.
-the bolting had stopped for the last month or so when we arrived at our new barn which has lots of turn out and he is in a program, but then spring grass has sprung and it seems to be causing him to be on edge and the bolting started again-but not every day.
-he has also bolted a few times when being put away at night in his stall-I do think this is because the partitions in between the horses are too high so he cant see another horse (which I know is one of his insecurities).
-I do feel that his foundation was not done correctly and that at certain points he may have been abused or hit in his past (based on my interactions with him since I have owned him and how jumpy and head shy he can be at times).

Curious if anyone has dealt with this type of inconsistent bolting and found success with a certain method etc. Hardest part is he is 99% great under saddle (only a few times has he made me really nervous) and he can be so great on the ground so I am really stumped. I am trying desperately to figure out a pattern or trigger in order to fix this long term.

[OverandOnward]

Can you describe more specifically the bolting behavior? The word “bolting” isn’t very specific, that could cover a lot of ground, and we haven’t seen it for ourselves. For instance …

Does he jump forward and mindlessly run over the person leading him? A safety issue?

Or is he jumping to the side?

What exactly seems to trigger the behavior? Or, what sort of thing sets him off, if it isn’t the same every time?

Where is his focus when he bolts? The person leading? Or is he tuned out to the person, focused only on the stimuli? Is he watching for stimuli, primarily to the front, side or rear?

I would say try to get some video for us, but I already know it is futile. They never do it when we are ready to get it on film!

[OverandOnward]

I will say that as one of my late horses was highly reactionary to spring grass, and his behavior on spring grass was completely different than his normal, I would almost rule that out as a ‘true’ problem. If it is just the grass, it will pass in two or three weeks. If you can limit his daily time on grass, that might help right now.

If you don’t think it is just the grass, or if you are concerned that this unwanted behavior might be reinstalled, that is a different concern.

It is important to be very observant and specific as to exactly what is triggering the horse. What kind of thing, if it isn’t the same thing each time. Things, people, other animals, time of day, sun, shadows, etc.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

We had a horse at the barn that did this. He was a large gelding, and was pushy in other ways–food aggressive in his stall, difficult to blanket, etc. It seemed like he knew his own strength and wasn’t afraid to use it. Every now and again, he would just bolt while being led and literally yank the rope out of the person’s hand. The behavior was self-reinforcing since he could run over to the grassy hill and get some grazing in before someone caught up to him.

But it sounds like you don’t feel your horse is intentionally taking advantage–you think it’s a genuine fear response?

[staciemac13]

its a turn and run away ( I have one on video but its not the best example of my ability to hold on haha I was defeated by the time we got the video from a few bolts prior). He will tune out anyone who is leading because of whatever is going on in his brain (sometimes we think its pain) and other times I am not sure the cause. he always runs back to his safe place (for example right now its his pasture with his buddies). He literally spins and turns his head so fast and just runs away-there is barely any warning. Its only a safety issue in the sense that he is going to get hurt or damage property (he jumped out of a pasture when we tried to lunge him after he had bolted several times and that was a first) I have been trying to journal each time in regards to what happens, the weather, how he was acting prior, etc. I am also working closely with a vet and my new trainer who also are stumped because it is sooooo inconsistent.
In my gut its telling me he is so scared of something and he literally has a panic attack-similar to a person, I get those so I can actually relate to the irrational thinking to get out of a situation but I cant figure out what his trigger is…yet

[staciemac13]

yes he is not doing it to be malicious at all. he is literally scared or in pain and then runs. I will say he has a big scar up his right nostril and then on his under eye and tip or one ear from his earlier years and it makes me wonder what was done to him that may have been the start of all of this especially because he has always been a bit head shy esp of quick movements. I have had thorough exams of his eyes done, worked with a body worker, xrays done, etc. as well.
He is fine to blanket and not aggressive at all, just panicky is the best way to explain it. but its not consistent.

[OverandOnward]

@staciemac13

he always runs back to his safe place (for example right now its his pasture with his buddies).

That right there is a herd-sour horse. Aka herd-bound. If it is horses or his favorite stall or other spot.

He’s big enough to have gotten away from people, so he knows that he can. This quickly becomes a deeply ingrained behavior. It can become intractable.

Of course I haven’t seen/experienced it first hand, as you have. But herd-bound behavior can become very, very difficult, even dangerous, if the horse is getting away with it.

Quite honestly, if he gets away to the herd at all, this will become worse and worse. Whatever it takes, it has to be stopped. No exceptions. Not by fighting with him physically (he has all the advantage) but by manipulating the environment and situation, with brains, not strength.

It is up to the humans to manipulate the environment and everything being done to make 100% sure he cannot get away from anyone, ever. Creating physical barriers he cannot overcome; restricting who is allowed to lead him. Anywhere.

A chain alone isn’t going to help, at this point. You have to find paths or even erect fence panels to control him while he is being led. Don’t count on humans to be strong enough. And don’t let anyone lead him that he gets away from.

Every time he gets away from someone, it drills the behavior in more deeply. For the rest of his life.

As his owner, this has to be the most important priority with him, for the rest of his life. Even after he gets better about it – it will always be there in the back of his brain, ready to come forward. This can become a very dangerous behavior to some people who may handle him.

It sounds as if you were making good progress. If spring grass has made things worse, you must take measures to bridge the spring season without him breaking away.

[staciemac13]

so can herd bound behavior be this inconsistent-meaning it can be fine for a month or so and then come back even though he has literally walked the same path daily away from his pasture up to the indoor? It also seems that this behavior (the needing to get back to other horses) came at the 2nd place we moved (I hate that we have moved 3 times but unfortunately our area lacks good quality boarding so when a spot opened up at the place I am now I jumped on it as its the best facility). when I first got him (the place he was stabled we were there for 4 months) he never bolted away from me and we walked all over the property and left to go out on trails where he could see his pasture in the distance upon return and never changed his speed or disposition. Its almost like the place we then moved to created all these issues (or brough back stuff from his past I didnt know about).

[staciemac13]

I should also mention when we ride alone in the indoor he is fine even with the big garage door open to where he could see his buddies down the hill and he doesnt even acknowledge them.

[OverandOnward]

@staciemac13

so can herd bound behavior be this inconsistent-meaning it can be fine for a month or so and then come back even though he has literally walked the same path daily away from his pasture up to the indoor?

Absolutely.

It’s a reflection of his history of inconsistent handling. Not necessarily with you personally, but with everyone who has had their hands on him during his lifetime. Including barn staff.

It’s a positive reflection of the progress you have made. And it’s a negative reflection that the quality of his handling over his life history has been inconsistent. Sometimes he gets away with it, sometimes he doesn’t. So, sometimes he gives it a try, sometimes he doesn’t.

He may improve to where no one knows he has done this, if they didn’t know him before. But it will never be completely gone. There will always be a chance that some situation will trigger it again. Even if it becomes years between incidents. BTDT.

This is a well-studied part of the way animals react to correction, and the lack thereof. Anything with a past history of inconsistent results, inconsistent reaction from the humans, is something they will return to, again and again.

They keep testing, because sometimes it works. If never worked once in their life, it is eliminated from their behavior repertoire. If it works sometimes but not others, it is never eliminated. “You have to play to win!”

And btw, animals can learn that some people are not to be trifled with, but they can try again with someone else and win.

I won’t go into a long novelette of my own experiences. Rather, the article linked to below refers to dogs, but the same is true for all animals. Domestic and wild.

Family Sabotage: Inconsistent Dog Training | Whole Dog Journal

[staciemac13]

ugh i was really hoping this wasnt the case but I think in the back of my head its always been a thought. I am trying so hard to not let it happen but I have obviously lost the battle at times with him as well. I cant build fences or anything as he is at a private facility but I have been changing up the routine and breaking up the path we take and trying to get his focus on me. I am hopeful I can get to a point this doesnt happen as often but I am scared that I wont be able to. I love him too much to give up on him though and will continue to keep trying to figure out the triggers.

[OverandOnward]

It sounds as if you are doing a lot of things well, because you have had some good results.

Per the dog training article, when multiple people are involved with a particular training issue, it’s an uphill battle. Not everyone is as knowledgeable, not everyone cares as much.

I’m going to post the link to a really old thread that your thread reminded me of, OP. At the time I had a horse that did not tie. He was 8 years old when I started riding him in a program, and this panic-thrash-explosion behavior to hard-tying was deeply ingrained. His previous owners had no idea what to do about it, and never did much of anything. He broke tie-rings out of walls many times, while he lived with them.

It was a journey to understand a) how to deal with him without tying (much easier than I expected once I learned some tips); b) more importantly, how to deal with every other human on the planet who assumed that all horses tie – or should tie.

Being able to tie a horse is a non-negotiable standard for many horse people. I was in that position before I decided I could deal with this for a horse that I wanted to own.

This horse became so much better over time, while I owned him, that challenge c) was people assuming that ‘of course he ties, he’s fine’. Nope, you have to know exactly what Blocker ring configuration will work for a good 20 minutes of calm, before you have to take him for a little walk and then start over. Enough time to go pick up a registration packet and visit the portapotty, but no being late back to the trailer. Unless I had a horse-sitter along.

If it is of any help to you … “Pullback Owners Anonymous”. As true now as it was then (although that horse has passed over the Rainbow Bridge, years ago).

Pullback Owners Anonymous

Hello everyone. My name is OverandOnward, and I own a pullback. That is, a horse that can’t be tied because it will panic and throw itself back against the lead and halter in a mad scramble that can’t be controlled. My pullback is the panic-explosion kind, not the mildly just-testing-you kind. If this linked post happened to him - if he were tied to anything fixed - the same fate might well occur. Death, or serious injury, to him and to humans as well. And possible damage to whatever he wa…

[staciemac13]

I also feel that part of this is his insecurity. again like his foundation was not great. I have worked on that with him a lot as well both on the ground and in the saddle. I am trying my best to also get him to look to me for confidence and not other horses (hence the liberty training). Some times he will spook at be very good about coming back to me both on the ground and in the saddle but other times on the ground he def is too overly focused on whatever the outside stimuli is that is a trigger.

[OverandOnward]

And btw there are herd-bound horses that are so bad about it, they can barely be ridden. They won’t ambulate away from the herd, the barn, or where ever is their chosen happy place. And/or, they will go a certain distance, and refuse to go farther.

They can object by freezing in place or by becoming agitated. Or by rearing, bucking, staging a major resistance demonstration that can be hazardous for the rider or handler.

You are not alone. This is yet another part of horse behavior that if not correctly trained from Day 1 can become problematic over time. But horse-people don’t like to talk about these training problems. Partly because they don’t want to deal with a lot of unfair negative judgment that they will get from certain other horse-people.

You did not make him this way, nature did. But his history of handling by humans has made this an ongoing problem that is never permanently cured. Even though it can improve significantly.

I think you should feel encouraged and positive about the progress you have made with him. The current backslide is just a reminder that it is never truly permanent. But you should be able to regain your progress, as long as everyone who handles him does so properly and he is not getting away.

Be fair to yourself. Don’t feel like a failure! Recognize your successes. You did not start this behavior with him, and it sounds like you’ve been on a good path to dealing with it. This is a horse being a horse, and something everyone will have to deal with sooner or later, if they spend a lot of time with horses.

[IPEsq]

Although the herd bound thing does need to be addressed, the comment on the one sided piece as well as the neck arthritis stands out to me. The insecurity could for sure be coming from what he is dealing with in the neck. Also with the gut comments and the moves and the beatings/questionable history, it might not hurt to check him for ulcers also. Pain of that nature (gut and neuro) can definitely tip them over the edge into these kinds of behaviors where they might otherwise be able to manage somewhat.

[FjordBCRF]

@IPEsq

it might not hurt to check him for ulcers also. Pain of that nature (gut and neuro) can definitely tip them over the edge into these kinds of behaviors where they might otherwise be able to manage somewhat.

I think this is definitely worth considering in the big picture. He sounds very stressy/worried (and seemingly rightly so if he was getting walloped all the time), ulcers wouldn’t be a shocker given everything laid out.

[NancyM]

Your horse needs to look to you for comfort, and for instruction as to how he should react to everything around him. Since he already has this “issue”, this is the result of his life so far. It will be difficult to change his mind about where he takes his comfort and instruction FROM at this point in his life, but that has got to be your plan. His size and strength means that you can not have a lot of effect on him in terms of trying to out muscle him if he decides he’s going to bolt… more so than regular horses. Chain shanks will probably not be effective in stopping him once he’s underway either, unfortunately. If you can find an “iron halter” in a big enough size to fit on him, that may allow you to lead him around in low stress situations in a safer manner until you can get into his head enough to make a difference in how he views the world, and who he feels is worthy to listen to as his protector.
An iron halter is simply a steel oval noseband, on a headstall. The ring you attach the lead rope to is on the bridge of the nose, not underneath the jaw. This tips his head towards you should he think about bolting, so he really can’t turn his head away from you and tow the lead rope out of your hands… even if he is a big heavy strong guy. The metal oval is uncomfortable should he try to turn away from you, to the extent that it will change his mind about bolting. You do nothing but hold the rope, then congratulate (reward) him for staying with you.
It sounds like you have quite a bit of work ahead of you to get into this horse’s head. The key is to be kind, and responsive to him, while making it difficult for him to make the wrong choice, then reward him for making the right choices. Communicate with him. Listen to him. He’s got reasons for being how he is, it’s not his fault. Find a way to reward him for making a good choice. Communicate with him. Make it a two way conversation, listen to him.
If you can’t lead him while on the ground, he’s not going to be safe to ride either. He must look to the human for direction and for comfort. It’s your job to make that happen for him. Good luck!

[staciemac13]

So we did scope him for ulcers back in sept and he was fine but to be fair most of the regression and issues started happening after that so I do plan to check that again. He is on supplements to support hindgut etc as well as magnesium.

[staciemac13]

Yes that is what I have been working on with him-the liberty def helped us create a better bond and I try to use positive reinforcement a lot but obviously I also have to use punishment as well when he does this. I will look into that halter as well. When he gets in trouble he def seems to shut down-like he just wants to get away from the negative response which has always made me think something bad happened in his past therefor I have tried to change up my approach to see what works. The issue is that when the outside stimuli is more “interesting” to him than me I have basically lost his brain and trying to get him to check back in doesnt always work. I also plan to work with an animal communicator that my barn and myself have used in the past. I am willing to literally try and consider everything to help him.

[staciemac13]

we did scope him in sept but the issues of regression etc happened more after that so I am going to look into it again.