Horse bolting inconsistently while being led....need advice

I leased a goofy gelding for 3 years. He was terrible on a shank when I got him and marginally better when we parted.

I never dwelt on what caused him to be a loon (mostly just hot). I simply handled it. Chain over his nose when I took him out. Every time. Better to have it & not need it then to need it & not have.

I knew another old opinionated bull of a gelding who required a broom or whip when he was led, until he died. One gal decided she was better than everyone else and didn’t need a whip to walk a 22 yro horse. He took her for a merry ride that day. :laughing: Keep a whip with you and he was OK.

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I don’t think anyone is faulting you for trying to figure out an underlying issue. The thing to me, is it sounds like you have a decent list of knowing things you CAN know:

  • you have a new to you horse
  • you don’t know the horses history
  • your horse hasn’t had appropriate time to settle into a barn yet
  • at the second barn he was at, the bolting behavior began
  • you don’t know what prompted the onset of the bolting
  • the bolting is an ongoing issue

For all you know, the horse has always had an intermittent bolting issue and it was never disclosed to you.

Short of reaching out to the people at the second barn asking if there was an obvious trigger for the bolting…you don’t know. You won’t know. If it’s not outwardly obvious to you like a scary flag waving…all you know is you have a serious problem that if not fixed, is already a danger to you, himself, and anyone handling your horse and without intervention could become worse. That is the info you need to act on and not just think more about. It’s also entirely possible what triggered him one day won’t bother him the next but something else might. Most things are not that obvious to pinpoint.

Given what we KNOW, personally I’d be getting a full health work up and would scope for ulcers. Those are things that you can know, and can help you moving forward. Medical issues can definitely cause/exacerbate behavioral issues.

If it’s not medical, you have more of a standalone behavior/training issue and you have a lot more data to come to that conclusion. Some horses are also wired a little bit nutty and no one will ever know why.

Chase what you can catch.

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This is the most eloquent way to say what I was trying to say.

Pontificating does nothing. I’ve seen lots of people make life-long excuses for garbage behavior because of some perceived “trauma” the horse endured. The horse is living in the here and now. Teach him the appropriate way to behave. Acceptable and unacceptable.

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This is very possible.

One way to read this is Horse has a bolting/manners issue, but had a Come To Jesus just before OP bought him - evidenced by

The issue reappeared at barn 2 resulting in the scared/incorrectly trained staff using Punishment to attempt to correct the issue but it was incorrectly applied and doesn’t work, creating anxiety and a sporadic bolt. Now the horse has/has had the Bolt in his toolkit, and OP is trying to fix it.

Trying to identify the exact trigger(s) and cause(s) is probably not worth the mental energy. What IS worth it is determining what you’re going to do about it.

There is a clear difference between a neuro pain bolt and panic vs a herdbound issue. These will be dealt with differently, but IIWM I’d be going the full tube of UlcerGard route ASAP, learning how to use the chain or a head collar restraint system, and working on TRT or WS stuff for herdbound issues. Multi-pronged approach, but this is very unsafe behavior that can easily escalate. This isn’t a school horse diving for grass with the tiny kids, this is a 16h gelding getting away from multiple grown adults.

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I think I’d make the 20 minutes after a bolt the most physically taxing 20 minutes possible for this horse. Not in anger, not with emotion but with clinical calculation he’d go in a round pen or small paddock and I’d make his feet keep moving the entire time.

My goal would be to associate a bolt with hard work. Horses are basically happy, lazy creatures and you maybe the first person in a long time that has asked this horse to work. He’s blowing you off.

Be safe, be careful.

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That might work for you, but I have found that the cause does affect my approach in training to eradicate the issue. Non-physical-object causes as I mentioned in my post (I agree that “It’s the bucket someone left out” physical object, noise, etc cause isn’t helpful). I am going to approach anxiety differently from “I want my buddies” or “I don’t want to play today.”

The OP is not navel gazing, but is thoughtful about various scenarios which will allow them to test theories and approaches. They will begin to see the bolt coming earlier, which will allow for better corrections, and then stopping it before the horse considers it an option. By thinking about the problem the OP is recognizing that they missed something and is figuring out a way for them to handle and correct the problem in a way that works for them.

It’s the horses that don’t respond to our tried and true, never fails, training methods that teach us the most and make us better. When one has less experience, one meets those horses more often.

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From what! you’ve posted in this thread I think you would get a lot out of TRT.

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Thank you for this response!

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I had a problem with my problem child leading a while back. I hadn’t done a whole lot with her and she was quite herd bound. She went off for two months to get some manners installed but I don’t think she was convinced that I was an important influence in her daily behavior. When I would lead her to the arena she would try to walk over me, walk ahead of me and then turn and try to run back to the barn where her friends were calling for her. She is a large cow like WB mare that had a huge advantage size wise on me. But I had one of those lunging cavessons’ with a metal core ( can’t remember what they are called).

So every time she would try to jockey herself in a position where she could bolt I made her halt and back up. No anger or rough treatment - just halt and back up. If she tried to run ahead, the cavesson gave her an instant correction and then just as fast, it was neutral again. After she stopped and backed up I would pat her and tell her she was a good girl. Whatever she wanted to do - I made her do something else. She needed to know I was calling the shots and she had better pay attention to me first. When she got to the arena she got a peppermint treat. It took a little while but the behavior kept decreasing and she doesn’t do that anymore and with more firm handling she has become more dependent on me for reassurance than her four legged buddies. It wasn’t fast and I would not have been able to do it without “The Enforcer” that stopped the behavior before it got engrained in her brain.

Drafts are not all “gentle giants”. A lot of them have learned to throw their weight around and use it to their advantage. Same with large WB’s. Bolting is very dangerous behavior and sometimes you need to find some kind of equipment that gets their attention and you can control them with. Is my mare perfect - NO. But I am aware of her resistance’s and don’t let them get started. The other day I was out in her pasture giving her hay and just for kicks I tried to free lunge her with no halter . She made perfect circles at the walk and trot around me with voice commands. I thought that was pretty funny that she was so tuned in to me in that same area in the 15 acres pasture that she was such a PITA in the past. So it can be fixed but it will take a LOT of work.

Excuses won’t cut it. I had a friend with a horse that was awful to blanket. The front end tried to bite you and the back end tried to cow kick you. But but but, “he was abused in the past”. And I thought “Welp he wasn’t abused enough obviously”.

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This ended up way longer than I meant, so TL;DR: lots of good advice on how to handle this to keep everyone safe. Based on what you have said, a few theories on what’s happening in his brain, and a few science- and psychology-based ideas on things that MIGHT help him (I say might because every horse is different, but these are things that either I’ve had success with or other trainers I know that work with problem horses or rescues have had success with).

From a behavior standpoint: this sounds like trigger stacking combined with now knowing he can get away if he wants. Basically, many little things that cause a bit of anxiety or stress that individually are not a big deal, but when added together can become too much for them to deal with. The high-head, checked-out, holding the treat without chewing or frantic eating are all signs of this. Even the trying to eat grass then bolting when you ask the head to come up is a sign, horses will sometimes try to graze for comfort when they are anxious.
Totally random example with a bit of anthropomorphizing for clarity: say your horse is a bit ulcery. He went a couple hours without hay while he was in his stall, so his stomach is a bit more ouchy feeling normal. Trigger 1.

It’s time to tack up and go for a ride. The last ride was a pretty hard workout for him. He is anticipating another hard workout. Trigger 2.

Walking out to the arena. It’s a windy day. All sorts of smells are in the air, things are a lot noisier than usual, and things that don’t usually move are moving in the wind. It’s a lot of stimulation, overstimulation really. Trigger 3.

The other horses are all galloping around. A deep rooted instinct comes up, telling him he needs to be running too. Trigger 4.

Individually, or even a couple, of these triggers might normally be fine. But on this day, it’s too much. He sees sonething in the distance that he’s not sure about, but when he is watching to see if it’s danger, his face is pulled away. He knows he is being asked to move his hindquarters around, back up, etc, but he is still too worried about everything going on. He is overwhelmed and needs SOMEthing, so he tries to get some grass. He is pulled away from it. Suddenly it’s all too much, he can’t handle it anymore. He has to get away. He knows if he goes hard and fast enough, he can get back to where everything feels comfortable. So he bolts.

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but this basically is what happens in the horse brain. Most “disobedience” is a reaction to some sort of discomfort that’s too much. It could be pain, it could be anxiety. Amd horses have different tolerance levels. The stoic ones can plod around in pain without anyone ever knowing. The sensitive ones can hold it all internally, looking totally fine, until suddenly they just can’t deal anymore and explode. And it can be hard to determine the triggers.

Ultimately, it comes down to making sure (as best you can) that pain or physical discomfort is NOT Trigger first, then training your horse how to handle himself. He does already know he CAN get away, so that can be difficult. For safety sake, there are already lots of good tips on being able to prevent him from getting away, which definitely should be implemented now (for the safety of anyone handling him and his safety).

For the root of the problem: assuming everything else is fine physically that you possibly can fix, there are a few things I’d try if he were mine. First, I’d make sure that he is extremely in tune with me while leading. I’d make him walk at my speed, slow down if I slow down, speed up if I speed up, stop if I stop, back up if I walk backwards, immediately and every time. You can make it a really fun game actually. If you do liberty or clicker training, liberty leading with a clicker is a great way to work on this while making positive associations with it. The emphasis should be on relaxation and prompt responses. If you are having to tug on the lead to get him to stop, go, speed up, slow down at all, then this will help with tuning him in to you.

Next, I would have a “happy” thing you can turn to when he STARTS showing signs of stress. Pay attention to his facial expression, his body language. The nostrils might flare, the facial muscles tighten, the jaw clenched, the eyes get hard and triangular. It can be quite subtle, but if you can start seeing the signs of stress ASAP, you can start trying to mitigate it. The way to do that depends on you and the horse, and starts with working on it in a place he feels safe. It could be anything from using a target and a clicker, to a relaxed turn on the forehand or leg yield, to just lowering the head, even to playing the “leading” game where you start asking for halts and changes in walking speed. The key is to make it something pleasant, relaxing, with good associations and good feelings, and something that he very clearly understands the answer to. Which is why you need to establish it at a relaxed setting, very solidly, before you can use it to help him come back to you. Basically, you are training him to use this little act as his happy-feelings, safe, comfort “place” to run to (instead of his buddies).

If you want any actual suggestions on things to try, need to bounce off ideas or share progress/road blocks, or want to know possible ways to teach some of this, feel free to PM me. I’m no expert, but at the very least I can point you towards other resources if needed.

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In theory, that is good advice. I agree horses are lazy and if they can associate the bolt with hard work, it won’t be worth it.

In practicality, I don’t think this works in the majority of situations. The horses is always faster than you. They bolt, run to where they want, and by the time you catch them, the clock has reset. Starting hard work then is more likely to make them associate the hard work with YOU and your presence, further dissolving the trust when its lacking is likely driving the bolt in the first place.

So unless you are in somewhere like a round pen where little time will pass between the bolt and having enough control to start work, in my experience, this is likely to backfire.

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I agree. It’s like counter surfing in dogs. The instant reward is worth more than anything else. You have to prevent it, by whatever means necessary.

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Sorry - this post got away from me. Leaving it because I can’t edit it down any.

I think the other component, and this is just my personal belief, it may not be popular, is that while pain may certainly explain the genesis of a behavior, it most certainly is not an excuse for a behavior. If it were, think about all those old arthritic schoolies that would be dumping kids left and right if they were not able to get over a bit of pain. Fear may explain a behavior, but it should never excuse a behavior, otherwise the horse will be very difficult for all new situations like vet care etc.

I am not saying that you are excusing the behavior OP, I am just saying that what I want first and foremost in a horse is one who realizes that I have control of his feet and thus control of the situation even if pain or fear is present. A horse that is disregardful of where it’s human is or ignoring handling (pushing into a human, pulling away from a human, kicking, etc) is a dangerous horse, even if they don’t mean it because of pain or fear.

You have two problems IMO. One is “whatever is causing the bolt” and “my horse pulls away from humans when he feels whatever feeling is triggering the bolt”.

Human logic says to fix the first one and the second one will go away, but Horse logic actually works the other way. Fix the bolt, then the horse will feel more secure and able to cope with what life throws at him. They want to know that you have control and then they can relax - even if there are extenuating circumstances such as pain, anxiety, or fear. If you find there is a medical or other cause, definitely fix that, but you have an opportunity to fix what is a dangerous reaction right now, since that has been exposed. What a great opportunity!

I do not treat a horse tanking away because of anxiety any differently than a horse tanking away because there is great grass at the top of the hill. Human feelings tell us they are different but in horse world they are the same - the horse does not believe that you have control of his feet and so he is making his own decisions about what is right for him.

My guess is that your horse came with the issue and that’s why he was following you and stopping like that. Someone realized that he had to absolutely 100% follow the rules at all times to be safely handled. The old timers used to call it respect but I know we don’t like that word anymore. What I would call it is regard. Your horse needs to be looking to you for instructions, protection, and safety and the only way he can do that is if you are consistent in enforcing the rules.

You’ve gotten a lot of ideas here, don’t try things willy nilly. Think about what behaviors you will or will not allow, and set very clear boundaries for him ahead of time.

For instance, I don’t want a horse to pull the lead rope away from me, thus I never ever allow a horse to take the slack out of a lead rope and pull on me at all. Horses have trouble determining how hard they are pulling on a lead rope, but they understand not pulling at all vs pulling. Pulling on me earns an immediate correction in my world, and I am consistent in this. For me, that correction is usually backing swiftly and then we perform a reminder of “when I stop my feet you stop your feet, when I walk fast you walk fast, when I back up you back up” for the next few interactions until I feel like they recall who has control of the feet.

This is how I have a horse who can be absolutely losing his mind over something and blowing up yet staying light in my hand on a flat halter. This is how I can have a horse who was horrible for the vet when he came in be a perfect angel, only hiding his displeasure by hiding his head in my armpit.

So - in addition to handling with the chain and long lead and being ready for it - I would absolutely be doing groundwork sessions where he is required to follow my every step. Doesn’t mean you have to be cruel or angry - that has no place in equine-land - but clear, absolutely.

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I’ve seen you mention this before on other threads, and I am curious to get a little more detail/insight from you, because it seems like a brilliant piece of equipment to address specific challenges.

The way you describe using it seems to involve attaching the iron ring to the halter so that it functions more like a lungeing cavesson, with the lead rope attached to the ring on the front of the nose? Can you confirm if that is correct?

Here are pictures of one that I found with an online retailer, and it shows them using it differently, with the lead rope attached to the halter and ring together at the back of the nose.

Anyway… I am curious about using something like this in certain situations with a challenging horse instead of going with a stud chain. Sometimes I need to lead mine across interconnected fields to the main barn, and when they are feeling really up, like on cold windy days, etc, it can be a PITA with one particular horse. I like using a very long shank with leather popper. It gives me extra line when needed, and leverage, and makes it easy to turn a rude horse in a circle if they lose it for a minute. I also have a stiff rope halter with knots on the nose and a long lead with a leather popper attached. But it’s not always an ideal option for the situation. I don’t use a stud chain much in this situation… more for challenges with manners in the barn when they need a quick sharp correction for vet or farrier or whatnot.

Anyway, this iron ring seems like it might be quite useful, and have the benefit of only coming into play and applying pressure when the horse is acting up. And that the timing of the correction would be much more effective and not require the same quickness and thoughtfulness as working a stud chain. Is that an accurate take on it?

Anyway… just curious and wanted to learn more about how you use it. Thanks -

I agree with this, to a point. I expect my horses to tolerate discomfort, up to a certain level of pain - but those nerve zingers, I can’t expect a horse to take that without reacting.

That said, aimed kicks/bites are a hell no. A reactionary movement is one thing, a targeted thing is another.

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Not every horse tolerates pain the same, kind of like people.

There are plenty of arthritic horses whose arthritis would make them totally unsuitable to be a schoolie, because they aren’t going to work through the pain like a more stoic animal.

In this thread, there are a lot of “no excuses” mindsets. I think that’s because we have all seen green or incapable horse owners let their animals get away with unacceptable behavior because “Pookie doesn’t like the color red” or some other BS.

But that doesn’t seem to be the situation here.

I agree that above all, the horse needs to stop bolting. I agree that if the horse is bolting, somewhere along the line, trust/training have been compromised. I agree that boundaries need to be reestablished.

But it absolutely matters if it’s something like glaucoma compromising vision and causing extreme pain verus an incapable handler making egregious mistakes versus a horse just needing to be reschooled on the ground. No, the problem will never fit neatly into a single box-- the origins are always intertwined. But if the horses is bolting because he is desperately trying to communicate extreme pain, all the groundwork in the world isn’t going to fix the situation. And if the horse is bolting because of the handler, the handler needs to fix their own problems first, which are often challenging to self-identify and correct. A herd-bound horse needs a different approach than an unconfident/fearful horse-- good training will help both, but there is nuance to it.

I guess I’m so vested in this thread because I know that I am no dummy yet my own homebred developed a pretty serious problem. And part of the reason that problem was so hard to get under control was because of my “no excuses” mindset. I had to change my role in the situation in order for it to be (mostly) behind us. If you saw or handled my horse any time in the past decade, you would never suspect she has/had a bolting problem. But it is absolutely still a tool in her toolbox.

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What I’m seeing in the thread is a horse who was given a what-for for the behavior (“seemed scared while being led” when really it just sounds like he had good manners), which worked for a period of time.

I also see a poster who is talking about past trauma and cookies and all the things that really won’t help this situation, at all.

I also see a horse who has been moved 3 times in less than a year - even my steady eddy would be a little on edge from that. The poor horse has no idea where “home” is, so he latches onto the thing he understands best - friends. The humans in his life do not have enough influence on him to make that not the #1 choice.

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I think reaction “yowza” is different than “yowza screw you human I need to be with my friends now”.

I do not expect my horses to be robots - they certainly can exhibit some joi de vivre. I don’t even mind them leaping about at the end of the lead. But pulling away? Oh heck no. Running me over? Absolutely freaking not.

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You already made all these points.

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I don’t even allow any - none - shenanigans on a line (lunge, or lead). That makes it super easy for them to understand what’s acceptable and what’s not, when.

Hooliganing around is only for when lines are off.

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