Horse bucks when asked to move forward while eating

[Ninetails42]

I have a fantastic mare, bought her out of a lesson program. For the first time ever I took her out on a trail where she ended up bucking me off TWICE because I took a break and allowed her to eat and she decided she wasn’t done snacking.

First 40 min of ride went great, very receptive and behaved. Decided to stop in a nice field and let her munch for a couple minutes while I sent a quick email. I pulled her head up to walk on and she threw a fit, I tried a one rein stop by pulling her head in but she got a good 2 bucks in first and threw me to the side. Immediately I lunged her for a few minutes then got back on. The moment I asked her to walk on she immediately did the same thing and threw me. Lunged again but too sore to try out a third time. Walked back (yeah I know she won and it sucks but I could NOT get on a third time) and did 2 hours of yields (round pen, on a line, on a lead, liberty) - backing up, turning hind, yielding front, ect. Did this all WITH and WITHOUT saddle.

What groundwork should I do to help prevent this from happening again? My goal is a horse that when I say “let’s go” they say “ok”. I am not looking exactly for “never let her eat again while riding” unless that is the only option, I’d like to get to the root cause.

This horse has never done this in any other setting, I would like to try and settle this mostly on the ground rather than bucking her out if that’s possible.

Not related to this issue she had a vet visit 2 weeks ago and doesn’t have any medical issues (she has cushings, but very early stage and 100% managed). The saddle is also fitted to her as well

[GraceLikeRain]

Well I can tell you two hours of drilling out of anger isn’t the answer.

It’s probably a learned behavior that’s been effective and now been effective twice. I’d find a good sticky local trainer who can let her graze and sit a buck. It’s naughty behavior but I would be really careful not to find someone overly punitive. Some horses are just wired to find the easy out. Grass is good, going back to work is hard, let’s not do it. I’d find someone who can sit out some squirrel and calmly send her forward.

Once a trainer can’t produce the response any more I’d get some lessons with you on her to set you both up for success.

Before I did anything though I’d get the saddle checked by a true qualified independent saddle fitter. Not a “my friend thinks it’s fine” or “it isn’t leaving rubs”. There is definitely a chance that the saddle is misfitting in a way where there’s a big ouch pinch when her head comes back up and she’s responding accordingly. I’d want assurance that there’s no chance of that before treating it as behavioral.

[Ninetails42]

Thanks for the response!! We do currently work with a trainer and do lessons every week so I will see if she wants to hop on and try and ride it out. She’s a fantastic trainer, I just feel bad about putting her in a dangerous situation. I always thought trying to work something from the ground first was the best option, but couldn’t think of a good way to work it from the ground with this particular situation. The whole thing was really surprising, it was a hole in her training I would never have expected!

Saddle was fitted by a professional company that came out, took measurements, tried out about 10 different saddles and I bought from them directly

[Scribbler]

@Ninetails42

I have a fantastic mare, bought her out of a lesson program. For the first time ever I took her out on a trail where she ended up bucking me off TWICE because I took a break and allowed her to eat and she decided she wasn’t done snacking.

First 40 min of ride went great, very receptive and behaved. Decided to stop in a nice field and let her munch for a couple minutes while I sent a quick email. I pulled her head up to walk on and she threw a fit, I tried a one rein stop by pulling her head in but she got a good 2 bucks in first and threw me to the side. Immediately I lunged her for a few minutes then got back on. The moment I asked her to walk on she immediately did the same thing and threw me. Lunged again but too sore to try out a third time. Walked back (yeah I know she won and it sucks but I could NOT get on a third time) and did 2 hours of yields (round pen, on a line, on a lead, liberty) - backing up, turning hind, yielding front, ect. Did this all WITH and WITHOUT saddle.

What groundwork should I do to help prevent this from happening again? My goal is a horse that when I say “let’s go” they say “ok”. I am not looking exactly for “never let her eat again while riding” unless that is the only option, I’d like to get to the root cause.

This horse has never done this in any other setting, I would like to try and settle this mostly on the ground rather than bucking her out if that’s possible.

Not related to this issue she had a vet visit 2 weeks ago and doesn’t have any medical issues (she has cushings, but very early stage and 100% managed). The saddle is also fitted to her as well

Number one. Don’t let her graze while you are in the saddle. If you want to take a break, get off, let her graze then lead her away from the grass to dismount.

There is nothing you can teach in a sandy roundpen that will translate to manners around food.

You could also take her for grass walks in hand to a place you aren’t planning to ride, let her graze, and build a relationship where you have cues to graze then pick up and follow to another place and graze some more.

Number two: don’t send emails on horse back. Your phone is for calling an ambulance, that’s all. Otherwise leave it alone.

Number three: I used to think the problem was newbies buying green horses. But I’ve seen enough newbies now buy seasoned lesson or trail horse and still end up with dangerously unrideable horses once out of the program and on their own.

You need to get yourself into a training program and not go trail riding alone until you and horse are a better team. Your first responses to problems are not useful, and I see this partnership getting worse and worse as mare learns to fight with you.

You can’t fight a mare. They fight back.

Get the trainer more involved, get some training rides, and get the trainer to trail ride through the field.

You need to invest in a bunch of support now before the two of you end up completely incompatible.

[dmveventer]

@Ninetails42

For the first time ever I took her out on a trail where she ended up bucking me off TWICE because I took a break and allowed her to eat and she decided she wasn’t done snacking.

I’m a little confused on what the “first” was here - was this the first time you took her out on the trail? First solo trail? Or first time with the bucking? Trails can be a surprisingly hard situation for horses and riders that aren’t used to it, so you may just need to take a few steps back and build up to solo trails slowly. Mixing food with work is also not something I’d throw in early, and maybe not at all depending on the horse.

@GraceLikeRain

Well I can tell you two hours of drilling out of anger isn’t the answer.

Emphasizing this. There is no connection for the horse to make between bucking while grazing and doing “yields” in the ring. Drilling anything for 2 hours, angry or not, is rarely a good training choice. I’m not sure what lunging on the trail looked like but I’d probably put that in this bucket too, no real connection to the issue you were trying to fix.

The concept of “letting her win” is really not going to set you up for productive training - if your horse can’t make the connection between the behavior you want and the pressure you’re applying then there’s nothing for you to “win.” In a situation where you’re injured and don’t have a clear idea of how to fix an issue it’s much better to call it a day before you make things worse and come back fresh with a clear plan (and preferably an experienced trainer to help). Even then, sometimes you can do everything right and if the horse just isn’t getting it that day for some reason you have to consider if you’re really accomplishing anything by persisting.

[Posting_Trot]

Yeah, I’d agree with everything @Scribbler said.

If this was the first time you rode the horse on the trails, it was totally bananas of you to go out by yourself.

Letting the horse graze while you were on her back? Also, totally bananas.

Having your attention consumed by your cellphone while on a horse (especially given the first two bananas acts)? Not smart.

Then, lunging the horse in the arena when you returned? Not gonna translate into any meaningful lesson for the horse.

I don’t mean to pile on, but you need to develop a lot more “horse-sense” before you go out on the trails (especially by yourself) with this horse again. A trainer would definitely help, but also one or two buddies with “been there, done that” horses, who will go out on the trail with you would be safest.

[2DogsFarm]

@Scribbler

There is nothing you can teach in a sandy roundpen that will translate to manners around food.

*THIS!
& Mare won’t connect the “punishment” with the action done earlier on the trails.
Pretty much everything @Scribbler said

OP, I trained my TB he could only snack on trails when I decided by cueing him with a tap in the neck & verbal “OK” when we stopped. If he tried to grab a mouthful when we were moving, he got corrected with a quick OneTwo jerk on the reins & “NO!” - no sawing, just OneTwo & done.
When I decided he had enough grazing, he got another tap & “That’s all”.

[Moss]

I agree with what others have said: 1. don’t let the horse graze under saddle (this is your time; not the horse’s time) or honestly any time you’re handling her because it needs to be black and white, 2. don’t go out riding alone, and 3. confer with a good trainer.

Also, as GraceLikeRain mentioned, lunging after a behavior isn’t going to help you or your horse. I want to note that horses don’t correlate between an action (bucking off) and a consequence (lunging). We make the correlation, but they don’t. I see people at my barn making the same mistake and then the horse will get worse with the behavior.
Horses do have amazing memories, but they don’t have a prefrontal cortex, so they don’t have rational thinking.

I have a very, very food motivated Fjord, and I have my time with her and she has her time by herself in her pasture eating. Eating is definitely one of her favorite hobbies. My girl is not allowed to eat when I’m riding her because I would never see her head ever again because it would be down in the grass.
I also don’t hand graze her, but I have a signal for her on her off days for how she is allowed to graze off lead in the yard. I’ve worked very hard with her so that she’s not naughty around food because she could very easily become a demon and food aggressive. I was actually just reminding her the other day how to lead politely with her bucket of food.

[fivestrideline]

@Moss

I want to note that horses don’t correlate between an action (bucking off) and a consequence (lunging).

I ascribe to the 5 second rule - if the correction doesn’t happen within 5 seconds of the action, the horse won’t make a connection. By the time you hit the ground, dust off, and get organized, the window to correct the behavior (bucking/protesting leaving food) is LONG gone. Drilling random groundwork for 2 hours is completely pointless for this issue as well, though maybe she’s yielding (or whatever skill was practiced) pretty well in the round pen now?

@Ninetails42

What groundwork should I do to help prevent this from happening again? My goal is a horse that when I say “let’s go” they say “ok”. I am not looking exactly for “never let her eat again while riding” unless that is the only option, I’d like to get to the root cause.

Please understand I’m saying this with kindness, but from this post it sounds like you don’t yet have the horse skills/instincts to solve this issue. First you need to better understand how horses think and learn before you can shape the behavior you’d like. For now, no grazing while a rider is in the saddle. I’d say no grazing on the trail at all but if you just have to, get off and take the bit out (assuming you have a halter and lead on), make her wait to eat until you give a cue. Then take her away from the grass to put the bit in and get back on. It’s more a rule for people to keep clear boundaries with their horses, but bit = NO GRAZING works very well.

I would start teaching the “okay to eat” cue on handwalks. My horses know they have to wait until I say “okay!” to graze, and they know when I cluck and say “come on” that they pick their heads up and get back to work. Lots of little reps until they get the picture - if they bully me, we practice walk/halt transitions and backing in the nice yummy grass until they wait politely on a loose lead for the cue to eat. No anger, no escalation of energy. It is very important here to have a halter setup that you KNOW you can get their head up and keep it up if they want to argue. If they can drag you around, this is pointless.

You can solve this issue, I think. Start by teaching manners around food on the ground, in a way that will translate to under saddle. Don’t let her graze while “working”, and definitely not with a rider up. Realize that horses don’t make connections the way humans do and think about that 5 second rule.

[Moss]

Yes, I should have noted this. In my mind, I was thinking of the clear gap between getting bucked off and then transitioning into lunging so there was a break in time. By this point, the horse has mentally moved on and doesn’t correlate the behavior and the consequence. Thanks for clearing the time distinction up!

[Paint_Party]

@Posting_Trot

If this was the first time you rode the horse on the trails, it was totally bananas of you to go out by yourself.

Letting the horse graze while you were on her back? Also, totally bananas.

Having your attention consumed by your cellphone while on a horse (especially given the first two bananas acts)? Not smart.

Then, lunging the horse in the arena when you returned? Not gonna translate into any meaningful lesson for the horse.

All of this.

If it’s a former lesson horse, it may have some minor behavior issues that need to be addressed. But at the moment it sounds like an otherwise nice horse. So, until you gain a better connection to your horse through lessons and time in the saddle, yes, I am going to be that person that says, “Just don’t allow her to graze while you’re on her back, trail riding.”

Not everything with horses and horsemanship is about gaining respect from your horse so it immediately responds to your demands.

I’d also suggest that you put the phone away, enjoy the trail ride and do the texting and emailing when you get back to the barn and untack. But maybe that’s just me.

[RAyers]

I am going to chime is with a small counter argument concerning grazing while riding. Endurance riders and some of the old long format eventers let their horses graze while moving. Nothing better to help maintain hydration and keep a belly settled than some forage when you are going for hours competing and don’t have access to any other food.

The point is that grazing while riding is not inherently bad. However, in this case there were some mistakes made from which the OP can learn.

To the OP, your horse was challenging your authority. They were treating you just as if you were another horse who was attempting to push her off her feed. You failed the test, not the horse.

1. Riding and texting/emailing, outside of an emergency or verifying you are ok and where you are, in anything other than a very, very controlled environment is very bad. I text regularly when doing gallop sets out on the XC course alone. I text at the start, between each set, and the end to let folks know where I am in the progression and they will pick up if I don’t text at regular intervals.

2. To train a horse to graze while begin ridden takes patience and a focused effort. It just doesn’t happen.
   Yes, kids on farms do it all the time and that works. They bounce when things go sideways though.

3. Training has to occur in the moment. Like others say, you fix things immediately, otherwise no connection is ever made no matter your intention. Any time you are riding you are either training or untraining your horse.

4. When my horse grazes while I ride, I never take my leg off or let my attention wander. When I say it’s time to move along, it’s time to move along, no hesitation. I pick the times to start and stop. One of my old eventers reached a point where he would even graze while galloping!

[Demerara_Stables]

@RAyers

I am going to chime is with a small counter argument concerning grazing while riding. Endurance riders and some of the old long format eventers let their horses graze while moving. Nothing better to help maintain hydration and keep a belly settled than some forage when you are going for hours competing and don’t have access to any other food.

The point is that grazing while riding is not inherently bad. However, in this case there were some mistakes made from which the OP can learn.

This.

Everything everyone else said is on point. Before this horse earns the privilege of grazing with you up, you need to do a lot of work with a trainer and learning how to correct behavior.

After you are getting the correct response from her 100% of the time (go forward when I tell you to is an important one), then she can graze. And I would start by grazing in the yard at home with you up, not on the trail. That way if something goes sideways you’re not out on your own.

I also follow the rule that @fivestrideline mentioned: bit = no grazing. I trail ride my horses in hackamores (another thing you’ll need to work with a trainer on - don’t just go bitless on your own for the first time), and when I ask them to stop, give them their head, and say “ok” then they can eat. When we’re done, I lift their head and ask them to walk on. There is absolutely no snatching of grass while we’re walking/trotting.

[endlessclimb]

Unless it’s a really long ride, I don’t allow eating.

My personal exception is if it’s mouth height. They can’t put their heads down but if they take a drive by while still marching on, whatever. If someone ran an oreo right past my mouth I’d go for it too.

[Demerara_Stables]

@endlessclimb

if they take a drive by while still marching on, whatever.

I always (genuinely) laugh when people have the exact opposite opinions on COTH. 3 horse people, 5 opinions.

[GraceLikeRain]

I have zero issue with grazing on trails but my mare was well established on trails, standing on the buckle in grass without eating, etc. before I allowed it and it was a privilege earned once I knew how she would respond.

Something to consider is that your horse may have been a lot more worried than you realized. If she was hanging out in the “I’m obedient but super anxious” space, grazing was a self regulating tool. Essentially she was inhaling her feelings as quickly as possible and then when you added pressure and tried to remove that self soothing option she boiled over. She could also be a totally chill packer trail horse that has figured out how to drop a rider to keep eating.

There’s a lot of variable that the internet can’t really figure out for you but there’s a lot of good advice on this thread.

Is her being able to graze on trails important to you or is it the ability for her to stand and chill in one spot?

[libgrrl]

I’ll add myself to the “no eating with a bit” crew. Riding out with a hack? Sure thing.

[endlessclimb]

Note that I said mouth-high. Not at the ground or even at the knees. I’m not going to even attempt to train a horse to not open their mouth and snatch something that’s brushing their lips. As long as they can do it without changing pace or overall outline, meh.

[Demerara_Stables]

To each their own 🤷

[skydy]

@Demerara_Stables

@RAyers

I am going to chime is with a small counter argument concerning grazing while riding. Endurance riders and some of the old long format eventers let their horses graze while moving. Nothing better to help maintain hydration and keep a belly settled than some forage when you are going for hours competing and don’t have access to any other food.

The point is that grazing while riding is not inherently bad. However, in this case there were some mistakes made from which the OP can learn.

This.

Everything everyone else said is on point. Before this horse earns the privilege of grazing with you up, you need to do a lot of work with a trainer and learning how to correct behavior.

After you are getting the correct response from her 100% of the time (go forward when I tell you to is an important one), then she can graze. And I would start by grazing in the yard at home with you up, not on the trail. That way if something goes sideways you’re not out on your own.

I also follow the rule that @fivestrideline mentioned: bit = no grazing. I trail ride my horses in hackamores (another thing you’ll need to work with a trainer on - don’t just go bitless on your own for the first time), and when I ask them to stop, give them their head, and say “ok” then they can eat. When we’re done, I lift their head and ask them to walk on. There is absolutely no snatching of grass while we’re walking/trotting.

@Demerara_Stables

@endlessclimb

if they take a drive by while still marching on, whatever.

I always (genuinely) laugh when people have the exact opposite opinions on COTH. 3 horse people, 5 opinions.

You have apparently agreed with everyone (Rayers is one, whom I doubt was riding LF Eventing in a hackamore) while then disagreeing with them in the same response, which is confusing.

I’d think that letting a beginner out alone in a hackamore would be a better bet than letting them ride out with a bit, but IMHO neither would be a great idea.

@Ninetails42, ground work will not solve your problem and neither does the problem need to be solved by “bucking out”. Find some IRL help. Perhaps someone here can recommend someone if you give a general idea of where you are located.