Horse Colors

[Mondo]

Horse colors is a complex, genetic minefield. Unless you are specifically breeding for color, it really doesn’t matter what color your horse is. That said, I notice (a lot frequently, it seems) in sales ads, people are often getting the color wrong. I saw one today that was marked “buckskin.” Um, no, that’s a bay roan. I saw another that was marked “silver dapple.” No, that’s a dapple gray. Silver dapple is a brown horse with silver mane and tail (and several variations on that theme). I saw another that said “blue roan.” No, it was a bay roan. And another marked “bay roan” that was a red roan. For heaven’s sake, how can you not know what color your horse is?

I’ve seen some horses in person that appeared black, but genetically they are liver chestnut. I know it can be hard to call sometimes without testing (which if you are not breeding for color is a waste of time and money, IMO). Smutty palomino (I’m riding one currently) is not the same thing as chocolate palomino. And so on. Don’t know why I’m ranting, just because getting the color wrong in an ad is just another peeve, I suppose. It makes me wonder what else about their horse that they are selling that they don’t know.

[candyappy]

They probably know what color their horse is but are maybe trying to draw more interest with choosing a unique and not-so- common color. Hoping the interested buyer is clueless? In many cases color sells.

[Scribbler]

People can be really clueless about the basics of colour. My friends who are English riders only find the difference between tobiano and overo pinto absolutely confounding, whereas it seems totally obvious to me, and I can also recognize a horse that is tovero or splash plus tobiano now too. Now sometimes the minimal expressions are a bit confusing. But the basic 50/50 expressions are so obvious. But clearly only to me!

[Mondo]

I had a paint filly that I bred a long time ago. (Long story). Anyway, I learned the difference between tobiano and overo this way: In a tobiano, the paint (white) is poured on from above; in an overo, it is splashed up from the bottom.

I don’t know if that’s accurate. My filly was referred to by the stallion owner as a “minimal white red roan.” She had a bald face and a blue eye, then a “handprint” of white on either side of her belly.

[Scribbler]

Basically, yes. The bald face is also an overo trait. Bald face and high white socks are two traits you often see on minimal overos, though some overos (like my current horse) have good body markings but no socks.

[MissAriel]

As a bit of a color nerd, I get nuts when I see these ads. I think Candyappy’s guess that they are trying to sell a fancy color is as likely as ignorance. But I am on the Equine Color Genetics FB group and it is amazing how many people even there don’t know the difference between phenotype and genotype or that red, chestnut, sorrel, liver chestnut etc are all the same genetically.

[smoofox]

@Mondo

I saw another that was marked “silver dapple.” No, that’s a dapple gray. Silver dapple is a brown horse with silver mane and tail (and several variations on that theme).

Well, to be fair - without seeing the actual photo - some silver dapple variations are that shade of bluish gray that does not look “brown” … people still get things confused!

Like this mini…
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: silverdapple.jpg Views: 1 Size: 16.4 KB ID: 9934414”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“9934414”,“data-size”:“full”,“title”:“silverdapple.jpg”}[/ATTACH]

Or this Gypsy Vanner…
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[Halt_Near_X]

@Mondo

For heaven’s sake, how can you not know what color your horse is?

Because most people don’t learn about colors genetically. They learn based on phenotype and whatever associations they can make in their head.

If you’re taught that palominos are yellow horses but no one takes the time to tell you about black vs. no points, you’re going to think some shades of buckskin and dun are palomino. Similarly, if you are taught palominos are a type of chestnut horse and they have light manes and tails, but you’ve never heard of the flaxen gene, you’re going to think a flaxen horse is some sort of palomino variation. Or if you’ve never heard of the silver gene and are putting your dappled gray horse up for sale… of course you’re going to pick silver dapple. It makes sense. More sense than the idea that a silver dapple is a brown horse with a white mane/tail to someone not versed in the genetics of it.

And for most people, it doesn’t matter, especially not given the learning curve (forget the genetics part of it–you think you understand the phenotype part, and then you discover that this breed calls this color that name or that region calls that color this other name… and then you give up, because other than how attractive you think it is, it doesn’t actually matter.

So you pick a color you like and go with it.

It’s no worse a sin than people who don’t know how tall their horse is. Less of one, really, when you think about how easy it is to measure height vs. dive into color genes.

Personally, I’d like to call my horse a cherry palomino. I mean, he has some flaxen in his mane, and I have had one person tell me he can’t possibly be chestnut (not sure why not, but she really thought I was lying when I said he was).

[Rackonteur]

It is good to hear other horse people rant about this for a change! I react the same way when I see dapple greys advertised as silver dapples, and especially when I see an ad “palomino Haflinger.” I’m with those who say if you’re going to have a horse, figure out what color it is. (Thanks for the pic of the silver silver-dapple Mini, Smoofox!. )

Why do Rocky Mountain horse people use the term “chocolate” instead, I wonder?

As a child I used to wonder about Miss Ada in “National Velvet.” “An old pink roan gone grey with age.” I finally decided she was a rose grey, not a roan at all, but that was just what I decided. I still don’t know.

I prefer the term “blue roan” to “black roan,” “red roan” to “bay roan” and “strawberry roan” to “chestnut roan.” I also prefer “piebald” and “skewbald” to “pinto,” but since I’m the only person I know who does, when I’m talking with other horse people I go with “pinto,” or even the not-always-correct-but-preferred “paint” even if I don’t know if we’re talking about a Paint.

[MissAriel]

@Halt Near X

Because most people don’t learn about colors genetically. They learn based on phenotype and whatever associations they can make in their head.

In all fairness, many of us learned about horse colors well before any of the genetics were known and you only had phenotypes to go on. Of course, some didn’t learn that part very well and others haven’t bothered to keep up with the genetic information that is available now.

[Scribbler]

Then there is the fun of knowing whether it’s a bay dun or a buckskin, a palomino or a champagne dilute, a young rose grey or a roan, a bay or a black with creme modification.

I have read that there are no roan TB but many young grey TB have been registered as roan in the past, so that suggests color confusion among some of the most knowledgeable breeders around.

When I was a kid I saw several albino horses, pure white with blue eyes and pink skin. Now I know there are no albino horses, My Friend Flicka the novel notwithstanding. What was I seeing? Maximum splash white? Not a double dilute cream, perlino or cremello, those have some yellowy or greyish tint.

[allons-y]

Rackonteur, I’m with you! I currently have a blue roan sabino paint pony, people think he’s exotic. Then I google it for them, thousands of pics just like him. I also have an OTTB with a bald or apron nose and high white stockings, minimally expressed Overo in a TB?? Now I have a Tobiano paint - textbook coloring;, that’s a very typey genetic color.

My husband tells people I have a bay tall horse, a blue and white small horse and a pinto middle horse. Sure sounds easier!

[MsM]

To add to the confusion, some breed registries have specific terms to describe colors. And they don’t all include what color geneticists would call them!
For some reason I have had somewhat odd versions of common colors with my last 3 horses. First was a chestnut - but he had a mane and tail that was mixed black/brown/silver. People often thought he was a bay until I pointed out no black points! Next was another chestnut. A little more common, but a darkish liver chestnut. Current horse is a palomino. But he is a smutty palomino!

[Hej]

Years ago I did some volunteer work answering the phone at the local SPCA.

A woman called in to report that her son’s pony was missing from it’s pen. She couldn’t give any coherent description of the pony, but after many questions did come up with the opinion that it was

" Sort of beige." !!

[chestnutmarebeware]

Well, even professionals sometimes get it wrong. My vet wrote down “dark bay” on my mare’s last Coggins. I pointed out that she’s actually brown. His response? “Does it bother you enough to pay for new test to correct her color on the form?” My response? “That sure is a nice dark bay horse I have!” Hee hee!

[2DogsFarm]

@Scribbler I believe a true albino has pink eyes. Those must have been some fancy horses, imagine keeping them clean :dead:

DH’s TWH was loaded with chrorne: strawberry roan sabino, so roaned-out we called him The Pink horse.
Add in 4 high white stockings & near bald-faced blaze with his head a darker roan. H.
I used to think he was One of a Kind until I was visiting a barn & saw an exact double for him - mare - on the crossties :eek:

@chestnutmarebeware : I sweated a few bullets when I was on my way to a show 5h from home & noticed on the Coggins vet had described my dark brown w/minimal roaning mini as “Grulla” :ambivalence:
Mini is 3 & sire was very (chestnut)roany so maybe as he ages…
But I sure did not want to get turned away for having the wrong mini!

[Mango20]

. I have a mare that is seal brown. Most would call her bay or dark bay. I have a silver dapple pony who most would call chestnut, but he has darker brown legs, so is a silver bay, like this one:
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQolhOtCCnakzKbh60HHoQOCtoXXM0M1kPnF-Hzor-qtZftK-Z-)

[trubandloki]

@Halt Near X

Similarly, if you are taught palominos are a type of chestnut horse and they have light manes and tails, but you’ve never heard of the flaxen gene, you’re going to think a flaxen horse is some sort of palomino variation.

I have given up trying to correct people that my Haflinger is not a palomino.
I try to explain that there is no dilute in the registry and they are all chestnut, but people still insist she is palomino.

I own an appy that no one really knows what color she is actually. She is registered as chestnut/sorrel but most people think her base color is actually brown. I have never bothered to have her tested so she remains one of those appy mysteries.

[Mondo]

I think Haflingers demonstrate what the cowboys call “sorrel” as opposed to chestnut. Some people use those terms interchangeably, but I learned that a sorrel is a red horse with a flaxen mane/tail, where as a chestnut is a red horse all over.

Paint and pinto are not interchangeable since Paint is a color breed and has to have at least 50% quarterhorse blood.

Mango! That is what I was taught is a silver dapple! He’s beautiful.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@Scribbler

Then there is the fun of knowing whether it’s a bay dun or a buckskin, a palomino or a champagne dilute, a young rose grey or a roan, a bay or a black with creme modification.

I have read that there are no roan TB but many young grey TB have been registered as roan in the past, so that suggests color confusion among some of the most knowledgeable breeders around.

When I was a kid I saw several albino horses, pure white with blue eyes and pink skin. Now I know there are no albino horses, My Friend Flicka the novel notwithstanding. What was I seeing? Maximum splash white? Not a double dilute cream, perlino or cremello, those have some yellowy or greyish tint.

The Jockey Club spells out TB colors in a pretty straightforward way - including why many TBs are registered as grey/roan.