Horse Colors

[Scribbler]

English is full of loan words from other languages. That’s why English had such a rich complicated vocabulary. Whenever English has encountered a new language it has borrowed words in shared activities.

Thus in dressage we use French words like longe, Tempe, renvers, piaffe, passage. In medicine and veterinary practice we use Latin words. In western riding we use Spanish derived words like lariat, cinch, latigo, grulla, bosal, hackamore, palomino, pinto. Western riding indeed derived much of its finesse from the Spanish vaquero tradition, which has some interesting links to early Spanish dressage, so this is a valuable lineage and one worth celebrating.

If you look in an English dictionary you will find all these words.

Not to mention place names. Up the BC coast many of the nautical landmarks have Spanish names because they charged the waters in the early days. The small towns inland have English names or Anglicized Native names, a few French.

What do you do in California? Confuse every one by saying you are visiting St. Francis or The Angels? Or going gambling in “snowy place”? That would confuse anyone but is actually translation of Nevada.

Anyhow English is full of loan words and omnivorous about gulping them down.

[Heinz_57]

@Scribbler

Logically this is true.

But paint and pinto are North American words and piebald or skewbald are British words. Do words get used out of their places of origin? Yes. But if you read horse books of even 60 years ago it’s Western North Americans that say paint or pinto, and the British that say piebald.

National Velvet did not ride a pinto or a paint, she rode The Pie!

Not to confound this argument further, but I have old books that also use piebald and skewbald to refer to two types of facial markings - so one could have a solid sorrel with a piebald face. I wish I could find them, they were old texts from the 50’s (western-oriented, mostly).

[Scribbler]

@Heinz 57

Not to confound this argument further, but I have old books that also use piebald and skewbald to refer to two types of facial markings - so one could have a solid sorrel with a piebald face. I wish I could find them, they were old texts from the 50’s (western-oriented, mostly).

Yes there is no telling how these words get used by individuals or regionally!

A bald face is a term for those giant blazes that are common on the Frame Overo pattern. I never heard piebald and skewbald used to describe face markings but I can imagine that the words could get repurposed once they stop referring to coat patterns.

Regional or historical word use is really interesting to track.

I’ve also noticed that the big gorgeous coffee table book Horse Encylpedias or Horses of the World that tended to be published in Britain would have letter perfect accuracy on all things British but then big gaffs on Western American breeds and sports.

[Arelle]

There’s a really interesting post on a Facebook group I’m a member of “Equine Color Genetics Discussion Group”: https://www.facebook.com/groups/141120579416962/ A liver chestnut-ish stallion and a bay mare produced a white foal.

There was also a great discussion today on the difference between bay and brown horses genetically; but I can’t remember where I was reading all the research.

[Janet]

@Arelle

Since you speak English, and not Spanish though, I’m curious - what do you call meat wrapped in a tortilla? I call them burritos, but I also live in Texas and knowing regularly used, easy to say Spanish words like “taco”, “margarita”, and “pinto” is common. :lol: #murica

To clarify,
I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with saying “pinto”.
I am just saying that it is ALSO correct to use “paint” as a color descriptor, independent of breed registry, especially when talking about a horse of non-US origin.

[MsM]

There is a bit of a communication problem in using the term paint for any spotted horse in the US. Because there is a registry of Paint horses, the listener may well assume the horse referred to is from that registry. Which generally means a stock-type horse with pinto markings. So, for clarity’s sake, the term “pinto” is generally preferred for describing the color pattern of horses of many different types.

I never could keep the piebald/skewbald thing straight!

[drawstraws]

@Arelle

Genetics are probably my favorite thing ever. What blows my mind are breeders who advertise incorrectly. I’m also uppity about it since I breed paints. :lol:

The big “to-do” in APHA lately is the passing this year of RG-070, which allows for “solid bred” horses to be passed into the full “regular registry” papers. There are a couple of tobiano breeders who will not stop complaining about this rule. Essentially, we all know genetics do funny things – and even breeding a paint to a paint can result in a solid foal. (Solid, for APHA, essentially means that they do not have 2’’ of white above the mid line of the hocks/knees.) This causes issues for breeders, since the foal is then significantly less valuable in a breed that recognizes color. This year, the Association passed a rule that any foal out of two APHA registered horses, that possesses a paint characteristic (blue eye, bald face, etc) and possesses a genetic color gene can pass through to full registry even if they’re missing the required 2’’ of white. I think it’s brilliant. BUT the genes that don’t fully express are typically overo genes, there isn’t a test for tobiano solids.

Going beyond basic coat colors, when you add in white markers (tobiano/overo/etc), the coat color combinations are outrageous. There are also some genetic markers that have been either recently identified (W20 - discovered in 2007), or are yet undiscovered. I’m trying to work with a college right now to see about getting a study for the rabicano gene funded - as I’ve got a mare that I know carries it, but we still don’t know how to genetically test for it.

It bums me out that more people aren’t totally fascinated by all of this. But, hey, as long as we still have newcomers to the sport and participation - call your horse whatever you want.

I’m right there with you since I show Appaloosas. They’ve allowed solid horses to show with the “regular” registered horses (no separate classes) since the mid-80’s and there’s still bickering going on over it. They’ve gone through a few different versions of the program but for now, as long as the rules for breeding are followed a solid horse can be registered and shown, provided you pay the additional fee for a “Performance Permit”. Like Paints, Appaloosa genetics can be a crapshoot and you don’t always know what you’ll get in terms of a blanket/markings/appaloosa characteristics. I certainly appreciate being able to show my boys even though they just happened to come out solid.

And to throw another wrench in the works, you can now register solid Appaloosas with the Pinto registry and show them (used to only be geldings but now I think they allow mares too). Go figure.

[RPM]

@MsM

There is a bit of a communication problem in using the term paint for any spotted horse in the US. Because there is a registry of Paint horses, the listener may well assume the horse referred to is from that registry. Which generally means a stock-type horse with pinto markings. So, for clarity’s sake, the term “pinto” is generally preferred for describing the color pattern of horses of many different types.

I never could keep the piebald/skewbald thing straight!

And just to make things even more confusing, the Spotted Saddle Horse registry refers to its pinto/piebald/skewbald horses as “spotted.”

Only in the US (that I know of) are pinto horses referred to as “spotted.” In the UK and elsewhere, AFAIK, a “spotted” horse is one with actual spots, e.g., a British Spotted Pony, a Knabstrupper, an Appaloosa.

Somewhere, a long long time ago, I read the description “pied” to describe a piebald horse. I haven’t seen it anywhere else, and I haven’t heard it, so maybe it was just that one author who used the word.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@RPM

Somewhere, a long long time ago, I read the description “pied” to describe a piebald horse. I haven’t seen it anywhere else, and I haven’t heard it, so maybe it was just that one author who used the word.

“Pied” is sometimes used to describe other species with two or more colors—especially black and white. Some breeds of (domesticated) ducks are called pied, for example.

[Scribbler]

@chestnutmarebeware

“Pied” is sometimes used to describe other species with two or more colors—especially black and white. Some breeds of (domesticated) ducks are called pied, for example.

The Pied Piper. I assume he wore “motley” or multicolored clothes.

Magpies which are basically crows with white patches.

Ha. Googled it and the first online dictionary gave the example of a pied pony. Apparently etymology is medieval English from magpie. No saying how they got named!