Basically, it’s a breed registry if the folks that started it limit entries based on pedigree. It is a colour registry if pedigree doesn’t matter, only colour. You can start any kind of breed registry you want, and there are some very small ones for small local populations of horse.
Then there are the Warmblood Registries which are a combination of bloodline, region, and inspection. A WB horse can have parents registered in one or more registries and be registered in a completely different one. A horse can be half TB and be registered as a WB and be worth a lot more money than if he had the same parents, but was only registered half TB!
There are even breed registries for mustangs now.
You can argue that some of these breeds aren’t really breeds, but basically a certain lineage becomes a breed when someone declares it’s a breed.
In other words, “breed” is a constructed category to describe how certain horses are related to each other. It is a human category. It is not a real or stable thing. Thus horses in a given “breed” can change over time, and a “breed” can “die out” or “be lost” or “get diluted” (from one person’s ideal to another person’s ideal, usually).
Also, many breeds including AQHA and Morgan, have several different types within the breed that have different characteristics.
The APHA was started back when the AQHA excluded pintos from registry, so that’s it’s basic definition.
What a wonderful photo, Scribbler. Thanks for posting it.
I love the different leg positions. I love the Queen’s classic boots. I wish Her Majesty would wear a helmet. I love the look on her horse’s face – his expression says he’s very aware of who he’s carrying!
Here is a photo of Princess Anne, her daughter Zara the eventer, and Queen Elizabeth on pinto TBs. When I first saw this photo i did some googliing and it turned out they were TB. Not sure I can replicate that research now
What a wonderful photo, Scribbler. Thanks for posting it.
I love the different leg positions. I love the Queen’s classic boots. I wish Her Majesty would wear a helmet. I love the look on her horse’s face – his expression says he’s very aware of who he’s carrying!
Where is piebald and skewbald used, geographically? I’m in north Texas and I’ve read it here or there but have never heard it used in conversation.
As an aside – if we’re talking strictly color and not white genes - I do find the different expressions of sorrel interesting.
I have more sorrel horses than I can count on my hand, and one keyboard warrior on Facebook recently told me the mare I’ve had for 15 years is not a sorrel but actually a bay. (Despite not having black points, but ya know. :lol:)
She does have a weird sorrel expression though - with darker legs and a dark red tail. (Photo)
My show gelding has a similar quality of getting a “darker” sorrel right before his socks, with quite a bit of grey in his tail. (Photo)
And then my other gelding is just straight red. (Photo)
Piebald and skewbald are British expressions. I have only heard them used in Canada by the Pony Club which has British resource materials. Since Tobiano versus Overo is the primary distinction made in North American, Piebald/skewbald which distinguishes between different colours of Tobiano, is not of much use.
As far as expressions of colour in the chestnut gene, I don’t understand all the variations, but certainly a chestnut horse can have a dark red tail or a flaxen mane and tail. Or, as in my chestnut paint’s horse’s case, a tail that is a beautiful mix of dark red, black, sorrel, blonde, and white hairs.
I have been told that the Jockey Club records a “gray born chestnut” as “roan” and “gray born bay or black” as “gray”.
It is not that the MODERN JC doesn’t understand the genetics of gray. It is that, when the JC was founded, they THOUGHT they were two different colors. And tradition won over science.
The EXISTENCE of a color-based breed registry does NOT deprecate the use of the color to refer to horses that have no connection to the registry.
For example, there is a “breed” registry for Palominos. But that doe not mean we can not use the term Palomino for all the palomino horses not associated with the registry.
Similarly there is a breed registry for the Cleveland Bay. But that does not stop us using bay for all the other bay horses.
So the existence of a “breed” registry for Paint does not mean we can’t use the term paint for all the spotted horses not associated with the registry.
If you want to be correct, it absolutely means that. A PAINT is a breed with PINTO coloring. So any spotted horse (excluding Appaloosas) can be referred to as a pinto, but unless you have APHA papers - it ain’t a paint. :lol:
Yes - Arelle is right, Janet. Paint is a breed, pinto is the color. Two different things. Also, Cleveland Bay is a breed, not solely a reference to the color of the horse (although, obviously, that’s part of it). But by your logic, we should be able to call all bay horses, Cleveland Bays. That would be silly. All Friesians are black, but all black horses are not Friesians.
“The Cleveland Bay is a breed of horse that originated in England during the 17th century, named after its colouring and the Cleveland district of Yorkshire. It is a well-muscled horse, with legs that are strong but short in relation to the body. The horses are always bay in colour, although a few light hairs in the mane and tail are characteristic of some breed lines. It is the oldest established horse breed in England, and the only non-draught horse developed in Great Britain.”
It’s also true that words and names change meaning, given how the community that uses the words develops.
Paint with a capital P does generally in 2017 refer to a horse registered with the APHA, although certainly you will see lots of older usages of “paint” to mean “pinto,” since pinto is just Spanish for painted. Well, Googled, and actually pintado means painted, and pinto means spotted or multicoloured (also pinto beans!). But related words.
The horse that inspired this song (written in 1936) predates the APHA.
“Likewise, in older novels you might find “thoroughbred” being used to mean “purebred” something or other.” Oh yes, it is still an accepted definition. Argh - it calls to mind many frustrating conversations with non-horse people who ask me what kind of horse I have. (At the time I had a lot of OTTBs.) If you say Thoroughbred, they say “Yes, but what kind?” I’m glad I have a Swedish Warmblood now. LOL
Back in the 70’s, and I presume earlier, piebald and skewbald were common terms here in the US. I learned them in 4H. They fell out of use as we learned about tobiano and overo genes and people started speaking more precisely.
In continuity with previously named equine KIT variants we propose to designate the newly identified deletion variant W22. We had access to 21 horses carrying the W22 allele. Four of them were compound heterozygous W20/W22 and had a completely white phenotype. Our data suggest that W22 represents a true null allele of the KIT gene, whereas the previously identified W20 leads to a partial loss of function.
Actually, looking through the Palomino Horse Breeders Association website, they don’t appear to promote themselves as a breed, but a registry for palomino horses, which can be registered with many other registries.
[h=2]Palomino Horse Breeders of America[/h]
The international organization known as the Palomino Horse Breeders of America (PHBA) was formed in 1941 to collect, record, preserve the purity of blood, and improve the breeding of Palomino horses. The original concept began in 1938 due to the efforts of numerous dedicated horsemen and horsewomen. [h=2]Mission Statement[/h]
To record and preserve the pedigree of the Palomino Horse while maintaining the integrity of the breeds.
To provide beneficial services for its members which enhance and encourage Palomino ownership and participation.
To generate growth of PHBA membership via the marketing, promotion, advertising and publicity of the Palomino Horse.
[h=2]PHBA VISION STATEMENT[/h] [INDENT]"To provide the highest quality service to the equine enthusiast by creating an environment that supports the efficient facilitation of their goals."[/INDENT] [h=2]ABOUT PHBA[/h]
The Palomino Horse Breeders of America, Tulsa, OK was formed in 1941 as a member owned, non-profit organization for the purpose of registering and improving horses standing between fourteen and seventeen hands tall, and exhibiting body color, with variations from light to dark, of a newly minted U S fourteen karat gold coin. There are more than 38 Affiliate Palomino Associations network associations on the state or local basis. APAs host horse shows, fundraising projects, clinics, futurities and family activities.
Palomino horses registered with American Quarter Horse, American Paint Horse Association, American Holsteiner Horse Association, Pinto Horse Association of America, Appaloosa Horse Club, Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds) American Saddle Horses, Arabians, Half Arabs, Morgans, Mountain Pleasure Horses, Morabs, Quarabs, Missouri Fox Trotters and Rocky Mountain Horse are eligible for registration with PHBA provided the horse meet color and white rules.
PHBA maintains records on more than 88,000 horses and owners, more than 250,000 horse show entries, and over five hundred horse shows. PHBA provides recreational, financial, and competitive rewards for every age group, extending more than 900 approved classes for amateurs, novice/amateur, youth and open programs. Classes range from halter to jumping, horsemanship to driving, cutting to saddle seat, pole bending to reining, and barrel racing.
Well actually the English word was piebald or skewbald.
The APHA was formed in 1965. I was a kid in the 60s and 70s. We never heard of the APHA, but the preferred term for all spotted horses was pinto, not paint, in kids books as well as IRL. Except British books like National Velvet. I had a pinto so I paid attention to that.
I think these usages are very regional like whether you say sorrel or chestnut. Knickers or gaunch or underpants. Etc. It’s interesting to know what things are called in different places but words don’t have stable references, only how a given community uses them, and that changes over time.
But paint and pinto are North American words and piebald or skewbald are British words. Do words get used out of their places of origin? Yes. But if you read horse books of even 60 years ago it’s Western North Americans that say paint or pinto, and the British that say piebald.
National Velvet did not ride a pinto or a paint, she rode The Pie!
No. No it isn’t, Janet. That’s what we’re telling you. PINTO is the proper description.
Since you speak English, and not Spanish though, I’m curious - what do you call meat wrapped in a tortilla? I call them burritos, but I also live in Texas and knowing regularly used, easy to say Spanish words like “taco”, “margarita”, and “pinto” is common. :lol: #murica
