Looked and yes, those are splint boots, but above them, clear to right above the knee, and below the splint boots, I seem to see shading, not white hairs like in the other pictures.
Must have been shadows there.
@ Arelle. I understand that you can have a homozygous tobiano pinto that will always pass on the tobiano gene, and always “throw color” which might be very minimal, a tiny white patch. Or is that an exaggeration of folks who stand Paint studs?
But of course you can’t have a homozygous overo because that would be born lethal white and die.
Does a homozygous tobiano have better color expression than a heterozygous or is it still chance? The homozygous Paint studs I’ve seen advertised have had classic 50/50 white/color markings.
Does the expression of markings in the parents affect the expression in the foals? I did spend some time on the website of the local homozygous tobiano stud looking at mares and foals. They were breeding him mainly to bay and black ottb mares for hunter jumpers and the color expression did vary a lot.
Duplicate Post
Duplicate Post
I literally spent close to an hour replying, and POOF. So hopefully this time will give you relevant version. :grief:
Yes. In homozygous tobianos, their offspring will always get at least one copy of the gene - but they may not get enoguh white to qualify for regular registry papers.The problem people complain about with RG-070 is that there is such a thing as a “slipped tobiano”. It’s rare, but when you consider that we arbitrarily decided that 2’’ of white above the knee/hock is what gave a paint horse “regular registry” papers - some tobianos don’t make it through and are registered solid, instead.
This is a pony, but if you ignore that and just look at it’s coloring - I’d bet money it carries a tobiano gene; however, the white on it’s legs wouldn’t qualify it for regular APHA papers if it were bred appropriately.
This one probably squeaked by on papers, but it’s your typical phenotype of tobiano.
Other times, you get them like this, where based on the markings in the legs - it’s got the gene (ermine spotting is an indicator of tobiano). But no white above the knees/hocks.
Yes and no. “Overo” is kind of an arbitrary catch all that we developed prior to really understanding genetics and white markers.
Lethal white overo is deadly in it’s homozygous form. The gene that controls the white patterning also controls gut motility in that one and foals are born with underdeveloped gastric tracts when there are two copies of the gene.
However, there are several other genes that produce a phenotype of overo but are not lethal in their homozygous form.
Examples include: Splashed White, Sabino, and Dominant White (of which there are over 20 genes that have been identified in equines - W5, W10, and W20 tend to exist in APHA lines).
What is really complex and interesting is when a horse possesses multiple white markers. This one has a copy of Splashed White and is Homozygous Dominant White 20.
Two ways I can take this question:
A) A homozygous tobiano stallion is going to have 100% chance of passing the gene onto his offspring, compared to a 50% chance of a heterozygous tobiano stallion. However, the gene may not fully express and you’ll run into the slipped tobiano thing I mentioned above.
B) Whether there is one copy or two copies of the tobiano gene doesn’t affect how much white a horse possesses - that’s entirely to chance. Horses with more than one white marker tend to have more white than those that only have one, but I’ve seen homozygous tobianos with less color than heterozygous tobianos.
Both Gentlemen Send Roses and Whatavested Asset are homozygous tobiano stallions. Very different phenotypically.
The gene does, but the placement and amount does not. Basically, I can tell a horse that carries tobiano from a horse that carries splashed white fairly easily. But - a “loud” (lots of white) parent doesn’t always mean a loud foal - and vice versa.
Impulsified is very, very loud. His son, Huntified, is very, very not.
These two are both by the Big Sensation. I assume they both got the same paint gene from their dad, considering both are out of AQHA mares. Couldn’t look more different in a show pen.
Hopefully that all makes sense and this posts correctly this time. I had more examples in my first post, but ARGH stupid forum. :lol:
I literally spent close to an hour replying, and POOF. So hopefully this time will give you relevant version. (Removing links to see if this will post correctly.)
@ Arelle. I understand that you can have a homozygous tobiano pinto that will always pass on the tobiano gene, and always “throw color” which might be very minimal, a tiny white patch. Or is that an exaggeration of folks who stand Paint studs?
Yes. In homozygous tobianos, their offspring will always get at least one copy of the gene - but they may not get enoguh white to qualify for regular registry papers.The problem people complain about with RG-070 is that there is such a thing as a “slipped tobiano”. It’s rare, but when you consider that we arbitrarily decided that 2’’ of white above the knee/hock is what gave a paint horse “regular registry” papers - some tobianos don’t make it through and are registered solid, instead.
This is a pony, but if you ignore that and just look at it’s coloring - I’d bet money it carries a tobiano gene; however, the white on it’s legs wouldn’t qualify it for regular APHA papers if it were bred appropriately.
This one probably squeaked by on papers, but it’s not your typical phenotype of tobiano.
Other times, you get them like this, where based on the markings in the legs - it’s got the gene (ermine spotting is an indicator of tobiano). But no white above the knees/hocks.
But of course you can’t have a homozygous overo because that would be born lethal white and die.
Yes and no. “Overo” is kind of an arbitrary catch all that we developed prior to really understanding genetics and white markers.
Lethal white overo is deadly in it’s homozygous form. The gene that controls the white patterning also controls gut motility in that one and foals are born with underdeveloped gastric tracts when there are two copies of the gene.
However, there are several other genes that produce a phenotype of overo but are not lethal in their homozygous form.
Examples include: Splashed White, Sabino, and Dominant White (of which there are over 20 genes that have been identified in equines - W5, W10, and W20 tend to exist in APHA lines).
What is really complex and interesting is when a horse possesses multiple white markers. The Sugar Daddy has both lethal white overo and is homozygous for W20.
Does a homozygous tobiano have better color expression than a heterozygous or is it still chance? The homozygous Paint studs I’ve seen advertised have had classic 50/50 white/color markings.
Two ways I can take this question:
A) A homozygous tobiano stallion is going to have 100% chance of passing the gene onto his offspring, compared to a 50% chance of a heterozygous tobiano stallion. However, the gene may not fully express and you’ll run into the slipped tobiano thing I mentioned above.
B) Whether there is one copy or two copies of the tobiano gene doesn’t affect how much white a horse possesses - that’s entirely to chance. Horses with more than one white marker tend to have more white than those that only have one, but I’ve seen homozygous tobianos with less color than heterozygous tobianos.
Both Gentlemen Send Roses and Whatavested Asset are homozygous tobiano stallions. Very different phenotypically.
Does the expression of markings in the parents affect the expression in the foals? I did spend some time on the website of the local homozygous tobiano stud looking at mares and foals. They were breeding him mainly to bay and black ottb mares for hunter jumpers and the color expression did vary a lot.
The gene does, but the placement and amount does not. Basically, I can tell a horse that carries tobiano from a horse that carries splashed white fairly easily. But - a “loud” (lots of white) parent doesn’t always mean a loud foal - and vice versa.
Impulsified is very, very loud. His son, Huntified, is very, very not.
These two are both by the Big Sensation. I assume they both got the same paint gene from their dad, considering both are out of AQHA mares. Couldn’t look more different in a show pen.
Hopefully that all makes sense and this posts correctly this time. I had more examples in my first post, but ARGH stupid forum.
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I also had a post go poof yesterday, not held up for review due to a link, just poof!
Not sure we may be starting to have some new problem.
Please give notice in the Help forum if someone is having any problem.
Man, this is all very enlightening! I did not know a TB could be a paint. I thought pinto TB’s couldn’t be registered with the JC/raced. Is that a myth?
Another color thing that really bothers me is the misuse of the word, grulla. The term can be applied to either a dun or a buckskin. But what bugs me is that people seem to think the gender of the word, female, applies to the horse they are describing, not the color. It doesn’t. A grulla can be a gelding, mare or stallion. The word doesn’t change to reflect the gender of the animal. A stallion isn’t “grullo” and a mare, “grulla.” They are all “grulla.”
Climbing down from soapbox again.
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the grulla/grullo thing. I had to look that up after I bought my GRULLA mare. Yes it comes from Spanish but you are absolutely correct it doesn’t need to be modified for gender.
and ahem never mind that I pronounce it “grullah” and not “grew-ya” :lol:
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[quote="![](ondo,post:48,topic:440015"]
Man, this is all very enlightening! I did not know a TB could be a paint. I thought pinto TB’s couldn’t be registered with the JC/raced. Is that a myth?
Climbing down from soapbox again.
[/quote]
Here is a photo of Princess Anne, her daughter Zara the eventer, and Queen Elizabeth on pinto TBs. When I first saw this photo i did some googliing and it turned out they were TB. Not sure I can replicate that research now 
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/975985/stream_img.jpg
[IMG]http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/975985/stream_img.jpg)
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Gorgeous, Scribbler, thanks!
OK guys - is this filly Palomino or Cremello or something else? Mom is sorrel (not the buckskin in the picture) and dad is pale palomino. Do Palomino and Cremello just describe color or are they tied to genetics? [ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“large”,“data-attachmentid”:9942269}[/ATTACH][ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“large”,“data-attachmentid”:9942270}[/ATTACH]
Looks like Palomino to me.
They are tied to genetics.
What you have is a palomino.
Black and red are the base colors of all horses. Both parents in this case are a red base color. Red is recessive, so they each have two copies of a recessive gene and that is all they can pass on to their offspring. If you breed two chestnut horses you will get a chestnut foal 100% of the time.
Additionally, your palomino stallion carries one copy of the cream gene which dilutes the red pigment. A chestnut base with one copy of the cream gene is a palomino. A chestnut base with two copies of the cream gene is a cremello (and appears even more diluted). So dad can pass on one cream gene (50% chance each time of whether he does) and mom cannot.
Your filly has one red gene from each parent and one cream gene from dad, making her also a palomino. (Your only two color possibilities out of this breeding are chestnut/sorrel if dad doesn’t pass that cream gene on, or palomino if he does.)
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Thanks Furlong47!
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Palominos can vary in color from cream to dark gold but they always have black skin and dark eyes, unless they have a bald face big blaze that gives them a blue eye (as can happen on any color).
Cremellos and perlinos have pink skin and blue eyes. You can only get one of these if both parents carry cream dilute, that is are themselves palomino, buckskin, cremello or perlino.
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Overo colored TB cropouts can be registered with the APHA. It’s not like it’s super common; but it does happen. Pinto TBs can be registered with the Jockey Club, but I’m not familiar enough with their rules to know about their racing rules.
I have 2.5 Living Large foals currently (one is still in the oven :winkgrin:) and I think he’s probably one of the more prominent colorful JC produced horses in the industry today. He’s double registered in the AQHA and APHA (he’s by an AQHA stallion out of a JC mare), and InStride Edition did a whole article on him and his lineage a few years back: http://instrideedition.com/2013/06/living-large-a-colorful-journey/
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APHA is a breed registry? I am STILL waiting for someone to elucidate what
“breed” characteristics a Paint has (other than color) that it did not get from its TB/QH ancestors. The registry was started for QHs with unacceptable amounts of white that AQHA would not accept. When did it become a breed, and again, what differentiating characteristics does it have that make it a breed.
To register a horse APHA, it has to have known bloodlines that are APHA/AQHA/JC.
If you’re looking for a color registry for any pinto colored horse, even grade, you’re talking about the Pinto Association.
OR, if you’re just being condescending - I’d say the differentiating characteristic is that they allow more than 50% AQHA blood in their horses and the breed standard includes loud color. :winkgrin:
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“…what “breed” characteristics a Paint has (other than color) that it did not get from its TB/QH ancestors…” Because those are the only breeds that are permitted to contribute to Paint bloodlines, those are the only breed characteristics they need.
Your question is the same as asking: “What breed characteristics do Golden Doodles get other than from Golden Retrievers and Poodles?” The answer is none - unless you count hybrid vigor. But, much as I tend to balk at the concept of “designer dogs,” I have to say that I really love the Labradoodles and Golden Doodles. They are breeds as far as I’m concerned.
Every horse breed is a crossbred anyway - with the possible exceptions of Arabians and Akhal-Tekes. Do you consider the Morgan horse a breed? Founding sire Justin Morgan was the quintessential mutt!
What’s the difference between a Hannoverian and a Holsteiner? Breed characteristics are the same. Place of birth is the distinction. Yet they are two different breeds with two different registries.
What about the POA? They were “created” in the 1950’s by crossing Welsh Ponies on Appaloosas. Today, they are a distinct breed.
Paint horses, APHA, are, therefore, a breed of horse. Color breeds, like Palomino, Buckskin Horse, Pinto, etc. are very specific that they are color breeds. Color is the defining characteristic.
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