Horse developing bad backward-thinking habit

[OceansAway]

Hi everyone,

I wasn’t sure where to put this since this will be a dressage horse, but it’s really a general training question. My friend has a very green horse who I have been working with on days she cannot, but he has a very bad habit. My friend is really into natural horsemanship, and all the backing up and shaking of the leadrope whenever the horse moves out of turn has caused a backward-thinking horse. Now, whenever he gets uncertain or nervous, he immediately scoots backwards, or thinks he should be still. I have been trying to teach him to lunge, but if I stop moving, he has been taught to immediately stop moving himself (no round pen.) Therefore, he gets very worried and confused if I try and get him to walk on, and thinks he must be doing something wrong and that I must want him to back up. If I try and engage him from behind, he will either move laterally, or panics and jump forward and halts again. Also, when he meets the resistance of the halter or cavesson, he will throw his head up into the air, as to avoid the “pop” from the leadrope that his owner uses to get him to back up or stop. I don’t use it, just for the record. I’ve never had this happen before, so I’m not really sure how to solve it. I’m not a trainer, but I have started a few on my own with minimal issues, so this is a new one for me. Any suggestions? Thanks very much!

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

My friend is really into natural horsemanship, and all the backing up and shaking of the leadrope whenever the horse moves out of turn has caused a backward-thinking horse.

Now, whenever he gets uncertain or nervous, he immediately scoots backwards, or thinks he should be still. I have been trying to teach him to lunge, but if I stop moving, he has been taught to immediately stop moving himself (no round pen.) Therefore, he gets very worried and confused if I try and get him to walk on, and thinks he must be doing something wrong and that I must want him to back up. If I try and engage him from behind, he will either move laterally, or panics and jump forward and halts again. Also, when he meets the resistance of the halter or cavesson, he will throw his head up into the air, as to avoid the “pop” from the leadrope that his owner uses to get him to back up or stop. I don’t use it, just for the record. I’ve never had this happen before, so I’m not really sure how to solve it.

I’m not a trainer, but I have started a few on my own with minimal issues, so this is a new one for me. Any suggestions? Thanks very much!

It is not fair to the horse to have 2 humans with different training philosophies. The horse needs a consistent approach to training…whatever that training approach is, everyone handling the horse has to be on the same page/program.

This is her horse. You either (a) get aligned with her “natural horsemanship training program” (b) convince her that her approach is building bad habits or (c ) quit working this horse

[fivestrideline]

Have you asked the owner how they get the horse going forward? Have they tasked you with working on XYZ, or just asked you to exercise the horse?

If it’s the latter, just don’t lunge . Ride the horse, and do any groundwork in the way the horse is trained. I’m afraid you’re just confusing the poor thing instead of training him.

If they’ve asked you to work on certain things, then you still need to have the same basic methods as his owner.

I say all this as someone who has a horse that was trained (poorly) in NH methods - his default is backwards and up. I’ve not found a good solution as unfortunately once that is an option for the horse it is hard to undo. You have to install the forward button in a very stepwise manner, slower than working with an untouched horse. Confusing them is the worst thing you can do, as they’ve been taught that hair trigger reactions are their best options.

[Pepsy]

Hi,
This may seem strange but maybe just try it for lunging
Instead of standing still, keep your legs/feet marching, in place. I have had success doing this with horse who stops when i stand still when lunging A new tool for your relationship with this horse

[Mondo]

@pluvinel

It is not fair to the horse to have 2 humans with different training philosophies. The horse needs a consistent approach to training…whatever that training approach is, everyone handling the horse has to be on the same page/program.

This is her horse. You either (a) get aligned with her “natural horsemanship training program” (b) convince her that her approach is building bad habits or (c ) quit working this horse

This ^ x 1000. You are fighting an uphill battle. (And people wonder why I am so snarky about “natural horsemanship”). I immediately want to suggest Option B, but again it’s her horse so…

[endlessclimb]

Also - this is a very common problem with horses - stopping, turning in on the lunge, backing away, general theatrics… if you can’t get the horse forward, I don’t think this arrangement is going to work out well for you.

[OceansAway]

I think you are correct about the situation, unfortunately. I wasn’t prepared for this, as I’ve never worked with a young horse coming from this training background. I don’t know if I have the heart/courage to confront the owner to say these methods are causing training issues, and that it’s not fair that I have different training methods than she does. I will probably have to find a way out, politely.

[OceansAway]

Me, too. I am not a fan of natural horsemanship, and this is exactly one of the reasons why. Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a way of convincing my friend away from it. She’s completely won over by it, and has been for as long as it’s been popular. I think it would just cause a falling out.

[OceansAway]

The owner can’t get the horse moving forward safely, and asked if I would try since I have started babies before. I have never come across this type of reaction, though. Stopping and confusion, yes, but this is because he thinks I am going to wiggle him backwards with the rope or pop him in the face. The owner makes him back up every time his feet don’t match hers, and now I’m asking him to move forward without me, and I believe he thinks he is misbehaving by doing so, and is anticipating the “correction.” He is not under saddle.

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

The owner can’t get the horse moving forward safely, and asked if I would try since I have started babies before.

The problem you have is that you need to train the owner not the horse. She has to make a decision…(a) continue on her way…and get a backwards horse, or (b) you need to find a way that convinces her that there is “another way” and another road to Rome. I suggest starting with a discussion to UNDERSTAND not to challenge…her beliefs and see if there is an opportunity to think differently

People are just like horses. Give them an option to make a choice…

[OceansAway]

I know it’s common, but this is a little different than training a blank slate baby. He’s anticipating correction by me wiggling the lead and popping him with it, and asking him to back up, because that’s how he’s been corrected prior. Now I’m telling him to do it, and he’s getting mixed messages. I think I am going to need to allow the owner to use her own methods for her horse, and focus on my own horse instead.

[OceansAway]

You’re right. I am just afraid of ruining the friendship, I suppose. Though really, I should be honest because that’s the respect I wish to handled with, so I guess I just need to suck it up and have that conversation. Yuck!

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

that’s the respect I wish to handled with, so I guess I just need to suck it up and have that conversation. Yuck!

As I said and truly believe…people are just like horses. You also have a decision to make. There is a pecking order in a herd.

You don’t have to go all alpha mare on her. But you can gain her respect by trying to understand what she is doing. Just like gaining a horse’s trust and respect by trying to understand a horse’s behavior

[fivestrideline]

@OceansAway

The owner makes him back up every time his feet don’t match hers, and now I’m asking him to move forward without me

If I understand, the owner wants the horse to stop when she stops moving? Or has she taught him gait cues based on her “gait” too?

Also, is this an issue under saddle (is the horse under saddle?)? If not, maybe you skip the groundwork for now. If the owner sees her horse does fine under saddle, she may be convinced to lay off the groundwork.

If he’s just stopping when the handler stops, and if you keep working with this horse, you could try “moving your feet” a bit. Walk a circle within the lunge, and only stop if you want him to halt. Meet him where he is at, as it were.

I am curious which guru the owner has chosen, or if this is a mishmash of processes. CA and Parelli both do a lot of standing still while moving the horse’s feet, as does WS and TT.

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

My friend has a very green horse who I have been working with on days she cannot, but he has a very bad habit. My friend is really into natural horsemanship, and all the backing up and shaking of the leadrope whenever the horse moves out of turn has caused a backward-thinking horse.

OP…I have been pondering your dilemma. Take this as stream of consciousness thinking…as in-the-brain…out the keyboard thinking.

Random Thought #1 – All the NH trainers that teach the lead wiggling, backwards running thinking, are over the top in their corrections and do not seem to respect the horse. This seems structured very mechanical “do this” to reach the lowest common denominator, clueless individuals. These trainers do not address (or teach) the handler’s timing or perceptive skills that would help them understand the horse and when the horse has offered the correct response. This would come under the PP and CA approaches.

Random Thought #2 – If you are interested in keeping your friendship, then start by asking questions to understand what your friends wants of the horse and maybe you can help her “tone down” her aids while still adhering to whatever chosen NH method she has embraced.

Random Thought #3 – Some people who are very “violent” in their aids are fundamentally afraid of their horses and are very unsure of themselves. Sometimes helping build their confidence (just like with a horse) can help diminish their reactions to the horse.

[OceansAway]

I haven’t watched much of any of her training sessions; just what I have been around while working my own horse, but it seems like she wants the horse to match her gait. So walk more slowly if she slows down, stops moving when she stops moving, walk faster when she walks faster, moves away from her when she moves into the horse’s space, etc. This is probably a very crude description.

She talks about Paralli mostly, and one of the women she works with is a Parelli trainer, but I also know she has trained with trainers from different backgrounds, too. All natural horsemanship trainers.

To address the last portion, I have only seen her move the horse’s feet laterally or backwards, never forwards. So she will make her horses move their hindquarters or their shoulders while she stands still but never asks them to move forwards. When they have, she corrects them by sending them backwards, which is where this issue stems from, I believe. Hopefully this is more clear.

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

So walk more slowly if she slows down, stops moving when she stops moving, walk faster when she walks faster, moves away from her when she moves into the horse’s space, etc.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with those requests…the question is “how” the handler is asking the horse. Not having seen this person, my suspicion is that she is being too loud with her requests and with her corrections.

Since the question you asked was about moving forward…how does she ask the horse to move forward when she walks faster?

[fivestrideline]

@OceansAway

To address the last portion, I have only seen her move the horse’s feet laterally or backwards, never forwards. So she will make her horses move their hindquarters or their shoulders while she stands still but never asks them to move forwards. When they have, she corrects them by sending them backwards, which is where this issue stems from, I believe. Hopefully this is more clear.

Ooooof. Yeah that’s a problem.

I think you should talk to your friend, see if y’all can come up with a plan together so the horse is getting one set of instructions consistently. Forward is first, the rest comes after. It’s really hard to work with a horse that is always in reverse.

Good luck! I do hope y’all can get a plan in place and your friend can install some forward into her horses. Be prepared though, sometimes these things require sending the horse to ONE trainer that can work with the horse consistently and then train the rider/owner to follow the program. Perhaps a non-NH but fair colt starter. This may be above BOTH of y’all’s pay grades at this point.

Maybe someone else will have some suggestions. Bottom line is I don’t think anyone will fix this without getting on the same page as the owner, one way or another.

[OceansAway]

I honestly am not sure. She just walks faster and her horse matches pace. I have never witnessed the training involved to get him to that part, but I have seen lots of carrot sticks and swinging the end of the lead, when her trainer is present. I am guessing there must have been a way she got him to that point, so that would be a good place for me to question what she did, if I continue to do this. Though, the difference being she continues to move when she asks him to move faster, whereas I would not be moving; therein lies the confusion because he has compartmentalized one being okay and the other not.

[pluvinel]

@OceansAway

the difference being she continues to move when she asks him to move faster, whereas I would not be moving; therein lies the confusion because he has compartmentalized one being okay and the other not.

The world with horses is not “binary” eg., either/or…it is both/and…as in it is ok to ask the horse to match your speed/pace AND also to ask the horse to continue forward when you stop.

This type of requests introduces a level of subtlety of aids and requires a level self-awareness that none of the PP/CA trainers teach.

Perhaps you can start asking your friend questions to understand her approach and what she would like her horse to do. What I have found when I have tried to help people is they are really not very clear in their own minds about what they want.

Horses require clear aids…if the rider is not clear in their own mind, how can they be clear in their aids to the horse.