Horse developing bad backward-thinking habit

@pluvinel Yes, this is true. Like a leg acting behind the girth can mean canter, but it can also mean haunches-in, depending on the combination of the other aids in conjunction.

I guess my problem is figuring out how to teach that it’s okay to move forward, while at times it’s also okay to stay with me. As I’m not a trainer, I guess that’s a limitation on my part. However, since it’s been questioned, I do now remember seeing her doing a combing motion on the leadrope to get the horse to move up to her, while she was standing still, and she does a kiss sound periodically, so I am curious if that’s how she originally trained the horse to move more forward to match her pace while walking. I’ll be thinking of a way to ask questions without her feeling attacked or criticized.

I think some so-called NH techniques have their uses. Not so much the shanking-the-horse-whilst-wriggling-the-rope thing, but other stuff.

My two horses are trained with some of those technques. One by me, one by a local NH trainer (before I bought him). I don’t know if this will help with your friend’s horse, but mine will lunge in a circle around you 'til the cows come home so long as you’re standing more or less in line with their hip/flank and have your shoulders vaguely facing in the direction of travel. When you change your position so you’re in line with their shoulder and you pivot your body so you’re kind of facing them, they stop and face you. I’ve worked on ‘drive and draw’ so they’ll wander towards you unless otherwise notified, but they will stand and wait if you wave your hand and say “stand,” or pivot their shoulders around and go the other way if you cue that.

The gelding, who was trained by the trainer, is a lot quicker to spin and face you and try to back up unless your body language is spot on. It took me a bit of faff to build a more reliable forward button on the lunge. You have to make sure you’re driving him from his hindquarters and facing where you want him to go.

The mare, trained by me, doesn’t need the same degree of precision, but she still has a ‘drive and draw,’ so if you step towards her front end and turn your shoulders so you’re almost facing in the opposite direction she’s going, she will stop, turn, and face you. Then look at you like, “what next?” Rather than run backwards like my gelding used to. I suspect he did get chased backwards by a flapping leadrope a time or two for minor infractions.

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You can have the horse match your energy without you running around or making a huge effort. But it is common if you are standing still and trying to send the horse, you are probably always applying pressure somehow (holding the whip out, etc). What this horse will understand is you moving your feet. You can do this in a tiny circle where horse is out away from you on a big circle. But you move your feet and you project your forward energy. He should match it (though this may be a work in progress if the owner hasn’t been good at this part). And then when you slow your tiny circle or stop, he slows or stops. I find this makes a lot more sense to most horses than traditional lunging posture. And you can do it at liberty or attached with a line and it works pretty much the same once they understand.

What the owner has apparently not worked on is sending the horse past her. Which is an important skill from time to time like with trailer loading and whatnot. But you don’t necessarily need this to longe. I’ve got a horse who is very opinionated about “sending” type requests as soon as he gets to the position of moving past the person’s shoulder. But he can longe and go forward quite well. We have compromised on his feelings about this. And you can do that as well so as to try to speak a similar language to this horse’s owner. This horse has had a lot of backwards energy projected at him. You need to work on more of a “draw” energy versus a drive…horse thinks drive is backwards. Use his ability to follow to get the forward.

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To instill forward, you also have to recognize and enthusiastically praise any effort, no matter how small or insignificant, toward forward energy, This horse is confused. Be happy with the slightest forward from the horse in walk. Keep the aids (even on the lunge–you can train them to go by the voice or even by body movements and just use the whip as reinforcement) as minimal as possible and be happy with the smallest reaction. Eventually, the horse will respond more and more. It is confused and doesn’t feel safe. I would not punish it for going backwards. I would ask to go more forward backwards and praise it. It is only doing what it knows.

It will take a long time to fix this, but it will be so satisfying. The horse is worth it.

To resolve the horse’s confusion, it is best if you can get the owner involved. But you could also ask the owner to stop working with the horse for a while so that the horse is not confused. Then you can train the owner what to do.

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I would strategically place my lungng next to a corner or arena wall and when he backs aim for the wall, then gently use lunge whip to go forward out of the corner when he can’t back anymore and quietly reteach it like that.

You can’t get mad when he backs up - but aim him for a corner to stop and block and redirect forward.

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OP, I get it. It’s awful to deal with. It feels like the horse is basically ruined. My advice as someone who has worked with a few and is currently working with one: If you can’t get the owner on board, stop working with the horse because confusion will reign for far too long until the horse figures out it acts one way with the owner and another with you.

If you can get the owner on board, good luck, it will take a while to fix this horse and little flashbacks will happen for sometime :confused: that leave you frustrated and the horse worried.

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It’s a good place to start with a horse trained from NH techniques. IF the NH trainer is any good, that is, they will have taught the horse to lead past them and go on a small circle around them. That’s a key piece of the whole training system! You point with your leading hand, the one holding the rope, and use driving energy from your other hand, with either the dead end of your rope, a lunge whip, a flag, whatever. When I started working with my gelding on lunging – and all I wanted him to do was lunge, not spin in little NH circles – I had him on quite a short rope doing this, like his NH trainer would have done. As he got more confident, I could use a longer line and make the circle bigger. Voila! Lunging.

You can easily screw up a horse with these techniques by not training the drive aids, just the running backwards and spinning aids. I remember all the videos and workshops of people like Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli aggressively snapping ropes at horses and making them hurl themselves into reverse gear. On the chance that the OP’s friend’s horse has been taught some useful skills, just with slightly different aids, the thing I’m talking about might help.

Years ago, during a short stint as a freelance trainer, I was working with a horse who had a lot of confusion about how riding worked. Anyway, horse was cooking with diesel on the long lines. Doing really well at it. Then one day, I went to the yard for our weekly or fortnightly session, and the owner said, “Oh, my friend has done some natural horsemanship clinics and then I let her try some of it with Scarlet.”

“Uh-uh,” I said. This horse, who had been long-lining beautifully a week or two ago, was now spinning and trying to face me and reverse every second. In the long-lines, this is not ideal. Took me a bloody age to fix it. Had to go back to single line lunging. I may have given the owner a bit of a bollocking.

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Can you show her how your own horse moves forward for you? On the lunge line, in a round pen, and under saddle? Can you explain that “forward” is the singularly most important thing to teach a horse?
If she likes what she sees when you work with your horse, can you start to explain how it’s done and what goals to pursue to accomplish the responses that are going to lead to success?
“Natural Horsemanship” simply refers to humans using the horse’s “natural” responses to herd behaviour and “pressure” he already knows, to teach him to do what we want him to do for us. There is nothing inherently “wrong” with this, in fact, it works very well. It is the human’s goals in this case that are at fault, not the method used. As you can see, it has worked really well. Unfortunately. Has to be all “undone” now, if the horse is to be successful.

If the owner doesn’t see this, then you will not be successful in retraining the owner that the goals that the training has accomplished in the horse are counter productive. And it is best to step away from intervening, if you wish to protect your friendship with this person.

Good luck!

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I disagree a horse can’t learn 2 ways of working on the longe. Let owner do her NH Thing, you introduce yours sloooowwwwllly.
You start as if this horse knows Zip about being longed in any manner.

Instead of sending him out on a 20m circle, make an equilateral triangle with the horse as the long side, you at the point.
Then ask him to walk so he’s making a very small circle, pivoting around you.
The line in your hand is one short side, the longe whip is the other.
You’re not “encouraging” with the whip, it’s supporting, as is the line in your hand.

Once he consistently relaxes, & will walk until you ask him to stop, you can gradually let out the line until he’s walking consistently on the large circle.
Only Then, ask for trot.
If he reacts, take him back to the triangle.

I’ve done this successfully with an older, but very green horse.
If you’re uninterested in trying this method, IIWM, I’d step back from the situation.
In the end: not your circus

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This method works fine for a horse who knows nothing. But facing the NH trained horse and applying pressure towards the hindquarters is likely to make the horse face up. You can’t treat this horse as if he knows nothing. He knows nothing about longeing in this manner, but he knows stuff…and that stuff is counterintuitive to longeing with person standing still and making a triangle shape with the aids.

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YES!!! i so so so sooooo agree

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I use both traditional and “natural horsemanship” training methods. There is good and bad uses and techniques in both camps. I find my horses do just fine in understanding both. So it’s the human that is the problem.

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Fine that YOU use a combination of methods on your horses. I’m sure they grow to understand all your cues in time. My main objection is with a green horse, somebody else’s green horse…that has been worked with whatever training techniques that owner uses…it’s not fair to the horse to switch it up midstream, or expect different behavior than what a horse has already been trained to do. (whether by intention or by accident…but trained to do nevertheless)

This owner has her own trainer she works with, right? So, she has already chosen her ‘expert advice’. Maybe OP could take lessons with that trainer and learn the techniques they use. And make their suggestions there, in a human-understanding realm rather than try to unhinge things from the side.
^i’m not saying this because i love natural horsemanship, (i don’t!) but it just seems a more effective approach to everyone involved, including the horse.

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I’ve used both methods on my very young horses (weanlings and yearlings) I have bought with no lasting confusion. My intent and communication is crystal clear and if and when the horse is confused I look at my actions and communication as the source of the problem. Teaching using what ever method results in miscommunication/confusion and it’s up to the teacher to find the solution.

The owner is the one who dictates the way they want their horse to be trained.

fine. The problem, as i see it, is OP is wanting to influence the horse using a different package of tools. (because original tools aren’t working). I’m just saying, OP needs to deal with the head of the snake (the people and their methods) not the tail (the horse’s actions). it’s not her horse.

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In dealing with the horse trained like that, you. need to have a good understanding of what the human is doing with their bodies and tools, and how they expect the horse to respond. First this knowledge helps the human avoid inadvertently asking for something, and also understanding when they did actually ask the horse for the response they got.

Second I’ve found that horses are much more receptive to learning from me after I’ve shown them I understand what they already know. I can use their previous knowledge to shape responses to new cues/aids. I can also ask the horse to do something “right” so I can praise and show them how to know when they’ve done what I wanted.

The OPs description shows a lack of understanding of what the owner has been doing (though it also sounds like the owner doesn’t quite understand what they’re doing either). So, OP can you get the horse leading around, at various speeds, backing up, moving front and hindquarters, and taking a single step towards you in a very quiet, calm, and relaxed manner using the cues/aids he already knows? That’s where I’d start, before trying to teach new concepts like sending the horse around me.

If you can find out from the owner which NH system she’s trying to follow, you can do a little research, and experiment with the horse to work out what the horse already knows. Then work on minimizing the cues/aids and getting a softer response. If you’re interested in learning more about reading a horse, you could learn more than you teach the horse even as you make the horse’s life much better.

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Yes, that’s exactly the issue with the triangle method. Applying the pressure behind, he disengages his hindquarters to face me rather than move forward.

When training goes badly sideways like this, you need to change how the person is working. If there is a “professional” trainer directing things, you as an ammie friend have about zero authority or credibility to intervene effectively. At best you will confuse the horse, at worst you risk injury.

The situation as you describe it is a complete failure of the principles of ground work and both the pro trainer who is enabling this and the horse owner who is going along with this are idiots. With no feel and no technique

If you could get the horse away from the owner you could likely rehab. But as long as owner is connected to idiot trainer, you can’t do much.

I would say: at the moment I think your training program has gone sideways and you have ended up inadvertently teaching the horse the wrong things. Throw in a couple of examples from your past experiences of how that works. What does your pro trainer think?

Depending on the answer: my suggestion would be to try another trainer because this program isn’t working.

And then decline to work with the horse because you feel the way you train runs counter to how the owner is training.

This can all be in frank calm manner

Rather than making it sounds like this is an ignorant rather brutal novice owner destroying a good minded young horse (the reality) make it more of a disciplinary difference. Like say you are a jumper rider that likes to go forward in an open head set but your friend wants you to push the horse into a “dressage frame” and it’s making the horse cranky and pissy. It might be true that going forward in an open form is a great corrective for bad crank and spur dressage, but you’d likely get out of this by saying “I’m not a great match because I’m not in your dressage program” rather than read friend the riot act on bad dressage.

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Alois Podhajsky wrote a book called My Horses My Teachers…perhaps this horse can teach you something about training.

Your job is to start where the horse is at and go from there. The trainer needs to understand the horse first before asking it to follow whatever cues.

I had a stallion that was smarter than most people…but it took me a while to figure this out. What I was interpreting as “stallion being disobedience” was the horse trying to figure out what I wanted. He would offer “something” in response to my aid…It wasn’t what I (thought) I was asking and I interpreted his actions as a disobedience…and corrected him…he then offered something else…and I corrected…rinse repeat…etc.

Eventually the lightbulb turned on on my head and I realized that the horse was NOT being disobedient. He was trying his heart out. What I interpreted as “disobedient” was him saying, “Is this what you want?” “No, how about this”. "No, let me try this…etc…etc…etc. That horse taught me more than I can say and I miss him dearly.

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This is just one type of natural horsemanship training technique and not fair to lump them all into one bad lump.

Are you sure you are standing at the hip and driving the horse forward from there when trying to get him to lunge? Even a horse clueless to NH methods will be confused if you are standing level with his upper body/ head .

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