I never implied the horse was disobedient. I described the problem I am having, based on his past training. Obviously he’s doing what he’s been taught by his owner. The HORSE thinks he is being disobedient, hence backing up, because that’s how he has been trained to react when he does something out of turn. I’m trying to say “no, no, this is good any okay!” If I continue working with him, which I don’t think I will (too much time involved to train him dually and I am not going to spent time and money to invest in a training method just for her horse), I have to use other methods to get the desired response.
Fair enough. I haven’t seen much I have liked, but then again, how much have I really seen? Yes, I’m standing in the proper position. Actually the closer to the hip I get, the more he swing his hindquarters away from me. I’ve seen the owner do something where she just looks and directs her energy behind, and he is supposed to disengage that way, so I am guessing I am confusing him.
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Maybe try a very small circle just so you can keep him moving or if you can get a helper to lead him( walk at his head) as you encourage him to walk in a circle? May help him get the idea. Some horses find learning to lunge challenging.
I know with NH there is a lot of “getting the horse to face you” and while that is a positive , it sure doesn’t help in a situation like this.
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This is a good idea, and I think it would actually help a lot. I’ve even done this before, but had kind of put it out of my mind, as for so many years it’s been me and me alone. But I can definitely ask someone for a hand.
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Good luck!!
Does the owner agree with you that SHE cannot get her horse moving forward SAFELY? And is that the specific reason she asked you to help? Has she said (or asked you) WHY she has failed in this? Has she asked you to show her a SAFE way to get the horse moving forward, or has she said “Just fix him for me?” Do the two of you talk about training methods? Does she know that your method differs from hers? Is she open to you saying why (you believe) her method is not working?
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Perhaps we are working with the same horse, ha ha. My new girl (sweetest thing around) does this exact thing on a lunge line, except really only one way. The other way she will lunge mostly okay until she decides she’s done and then she just stops. The bad way, she mostly wants to stop and go backwards. And backwards and backwards.
I’m not sure if she was roped off that side or what as she was western trained (and trained really well but I suspect of lot of NH, too). So the struggle is real. If I get a few circles of good work the bad way, I just stop, call her in and praise the heck out of her. But the slightest disruption that way and she’s going back again. Honestly, I’m just not lunging much because I’m afraid of reinforcing the back.
No, I’m not a trainer, I don’t really have one at the moment but I fell in love with this horse’s personality so there you have it. She may only ever be my big, sweet pet, lol.
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Ride her and enjoy and don’t sweat the lunging if she’s well trained. 
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Yes, she got nervous because the horse has reared on her. She asked me because she has seen me work my horses and other’s horses and thought I was really good with groundwork (I’m not, I am much better as a rider, but I always like to try.) She thinks the failure is the horse not understanding what she’s asking, and getting nervous, but she definitely has not connected it to her sending the horse backwards. As a matter of fact, her other two are always balking, and it’s got to be the training. It was definitely more of a “here, fix this because your horses go well,” type of thing. She knows I am not educated in the way she trains as I’ve been vocal about that part. Just not about the part regarding what I think is causing the issue. The owner is the type to agree with you, and then totally ignore the advice and do it her way anyway. It’s frustrating.
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I did not mean to imply this horse you are working was being disobedient. And actually the horse in my case was not being disobedient, he was trying his heart out to comply with his interpretation of my requests…so it is a big leap for you to leap to that conclusion. I was illustrating a case of a clueless owner, me, (who had successfully worked with other young horses) now working with the smartest horse I have run across and how I/me needed to change.
I was suggesting that you look at HOW this horse responds to your requests and see if you can start there and work to change your approach to the horse to help him understand and modify his responses.
I was using myself as an example to show that it was ME, the trainer, who needed to change. I needed to perceive the horse differently. I am just suggesting that you open your mind to listening to the horse and see how/why he reacts to your requests. Are you making subtle body movements that he is interpreting? Are your aids too loud? Look at yourself and what you are doing versus how the horse responds.
Using the same aids for a “green” horse are inappropriate for a “retraining” prospect…AND make sure that whatever you try to do is not in conflict with whatever method the horse’s owner is using.
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Sending a horse backwards fast absolutely ladders into rearimg. If you are teaching this and horse starts rearing you STOP.
I am working with a horse whose in hand freakout is to run backwards sit down and rear. You can bet I have never ever disciplined her by sending her backwards or allowed others to do this.
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You might want to politely say thanks but no thanks. There is no winning with this type IME.
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I totally agree with jvanrens…cut your losses and leave. The issue is the owner, not the horse.
As Cesar Millan said, he rehabilitates dogs and he trains people…and it seems this horse’s owner is the one that needs some training.
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The trick will be getting the owner away from the NH “trainer” they are getting their “training” from. Some, once they drink the cool aid are a lost cause, even if 3 of their horses develop the same problem.
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That’s the plan! The other issue we have is that she is very other horse focused so that is a bit of challenge at the moment too. I have no doubt she will be enjoyable eventually but we’ve had a rough start due to life. We’ll get there, I really adore her personality!
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Then try the method I described above. Move your feet and ask the horse to match your energy. You may also want to first make sure you can do some sending out. If the horse is facing you, can you drive him to the side and out around you just a little bit, by yielding the shoulders first? When that is good both ways, when the horse gets sent off, go with him on a circle yourself. Don’t stop your feet even if you are nearly stationary, unless you want him to stop.
I’ve actually used this a bit on both balky horses as well as a few h/j trained horses who thought the longe line meant get chased around as fast as you can go until you are tired (the opposite of backwards). The reason it works is that it is a way that you can build connection with the horse. So ideally it can work with or without a longe line. You want to have the horse’s focus. They will be watching you for your change in pace and energy to match it. There are nuances to it but this horse already seems to understand watching for these changes while leading. So I think you can get there. But you need more draw. This horse seems to view drive as backwards. So ask him instead to come along with you. You’ll have to get that connection while going slow before you can then up your energy and ask him to come along faster.
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I couldn’t agree more! The Parellis and their ilk don’t teach the finer points of horse handling and end up with a bunch of neophytes who think they know how to train a horse. And you get what the OP is experiencing. THAT is why I have such disdain for NH.
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Have you tried standing with the horse in front of you, putting an arm out to the side in the direction you wish them to go, and pointing the whip/swinging a rope at the shoulder to get them to step away and start longing? Also, you’ll want to face your chest just behind the driveline. Too far forward and they will stop, too far backward and they will hide the hindquarters. That’s pretty typical for most western and/or NH types of training.
Beyond that, it would be worth asking the trainer or owner what their cues are for longing. They may have them, you just don’t know them. Everyone teaches it differently in English-land too - I’ve had trainers what me to walk, want me to stand still, keep my arms by my side, keep my arms out, all kinds of different schools of thought. You might have to let go of what you normally do for a horse taught differently.
I use a lot of steps matching and backing out of my space in my training, but that’s usually because I get horses in who have learned that they can ignore human beings and I absolutely despise being dragged around and run over, and I don’t want to resort to “having” to use a chain for all the things. I don’t find it is incompatible with teaching forward but you do have to be sensitive to equine body language.
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Do you have disdain for traditional training as well, because neophytes also think they know how to train as well since most instructors don’t teach the finer points of horse handling. I had to retrain my Andalusian stallion to lunge correctly cause he thought lunging meant go crazy and gallop. Doesn’t mean I should have disdain for the failure of his previous owners to teach him how to correctly lunge. Lunging correctly is not easy.
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You’re conflating bad training with a bad training system.
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