I have done a partial lease on a wonderful former school horse for about 6-7 months (with about a month off due to the virus). He’s a saint — bombproof, well behaved, honest, etc. I love him to pieces. But I can’t for the life of me get him in any kind of round frame, even for a few strides. We do bajillions of transitions/basic lateral work and it only seems to help very marginally. He is older, 22, and has basically no topline. He loves to lean heavily on the bit, but once I get him to stop doing that (or if I just ask him to go more forward in general) he lifts his head too much and hollows. I can get him to bring his back up and engage his hind end a LITTLE bit with endless transitions, but I can never bring his head down to a good position or get him really through. His canter isn’t necessarily uncomfortable, but it’s the kind where there has to be a ton of movement in my arms to keep contact because he rocks back and forth so much. He works very hard, I don’t know if I’m just asking too much - I only ride him 2 days a week and not being the owner I’m not really in a position to do anything outside of my time in the ring (ie check saddle fit, bring out a chiro, etc). I also don’t know how his owner or the other leaser rides him. I’m hoping it’s an issue with my riding, because it would be a nice to be able to fix it. Any tips??
You need to ask to watch the trainer/ owner ride him. I see he has been a “school horse” but that doesn’t mean he is a “school master.” Many kind and even saintly lesson horses live out their lives doing beginner lessons and never getting any advanced training. Once they start to get old and stiff the various holes in their training become even more obvious. What were you told this horse could do? What did you see owner/ trainer do in your trial ride? Do you have any reason to believe that he has ever learned to carry himself properly?
On the other hand, what is your riding experience and experience with dressage specifically? Have you ever schooled a young horse to start carrying itself?
I just wanted a horse to ride, and I found one I could for free. The owner was pregnant when I began the lease so I’ve never seen her ride him. I’m also never at the barn at the same time she is, and my free time is limited, so I’m not sure how I would be able to see her ride. Maybe I’ll ask her to take a video.
He is well trained for a former school horse, he bends well, has good simple changes, can leg yield, decent transitions when asked properly, etc other basic stuff. I don’t have any reason to believe he has been taught to carry himself properly, though, I was just wondering if there is any way I can help him to do so with the limited time I have to ride him. I know he’s not suddenly going to be in a round frame for any extended period of time, I’m just looking for a stride or two so then I can begin building from there.
I have been riding since I was 7 but took a pretty long break at one point (I am 24). I am not a dressage rider. I don’t compete. I only put this topic under the dressage forum because it seemed the most relevant. I’ve never owned, started a horse or trained a horse beyond helping trainers by getting on green ponies and doing what they tell me to do. My budget is very small and I have never been able to afford my own horse. Just looking for specific tips on how to get this horse to engage his hind end and lower his neck even a little bit. Maybe it will work maybe it won’t, but it will be helpful beyond my experience with this horse in particular anyways.
My trainer is not at this barn, by the way, and doesn’t travel.
The horse leans because he is not coming up from behind. He goes hollow because he is not coming up from behind, and in response to your hands.
You need someone from the dressage world as an instructor to explain to you how to use your body. I suspect he may know how to come under but isn’t giving it for free.
I have acknowledged that it may very well, or even likely be a problem with my riding. I’ve asked for specific tips and things I may be able to do to help with this problem, if you don’t have any to offer I’d appreciate it if you don’t reply to this thread. It is not helpful to tell me to get a trainer. I have a trainer already. I’m not a dressage rider and have no desire to be one. I also work for my lessons and could not afford another situation even if I wanted to. Thank you.
When a horse I ride inverts I bring my hands UP so that the reins are more or less parallel to the cheek straps of the bridle (watch out so you do not hit the horse’s eye with the reins!) I keep on using my alternating leg aids to encourage the horse to reach out to the bit.
Some of the horses I’ve done this with have then proceeded to reach out for the bit and continue reaching out all the way down until their nose is just above the ground, go a few steps and then raise their head to a more normal level. When the horse does this I try to keep very light contact or I just let the reins slip through my fingers if the movement is too sudden for me to keep the contact light and supple, and I keep on using my legs. Of course if I let the reins slip through my fingers I have to re-adjust them when the horse’s head comes up.
Other horses bring their heads down to a more normal position, with their nose leading and their throatlatch open. I make sure to move my hands FORWARD so that I do not accidentally bump the horse’s mouth and cause another inversion.
Then it becomes my responsibility to keep my contact light enough and my fingers supple enough so that the horse has a chance to learn to trust the bit. Forget about a “frame”, a horse who goes to inversion just does not have the proper muscles strong enough to be able to go into “frame.”
EVERY lesson horse that I’ve ridden in the past 10-15 years has this, inverting, as a “favorite” evasion of the bit, especially with hands that are stiff, rigid, and do not go far enough forward for the horse to find comfort while he is getting his muscles strong enough for more advanced work (ie. this can happen with most non-advanced riding students.) When the horse inverts his back muscles get TENSE, and this tension will not leave until the horse learns that he can trust the rider not to hurt his mouth accidentally. Until the back muscles relax there is absolutely no way that a horse is capable of getting even a remote resemblance to a “proper frame.”
In inversion the horse’s neck is also too tense, they tend to go into an “ewe neck” with the bottom of the neck bulging forward. Again it is hopeless to even think about a “proper frame” until the horse learns to relax his neck and reach out to the bit with an open throatlatch.
This takes sympathetic hands, a lot of time, and a consistent rider.
If you do this well, and you have enough patience, at some point the horse will indicate that his body is working properly, and only then can a rider get more ambitious without causing harm to the horse.
Super helpful Jackie, thank you so much!!
And this is called riding front to back.
It could also cause a lot of distress to the OP’s horse as we don’t know what bit is being used, how the horse was trained and how the OP rides.
This « technique » could lead to a lot a dangerous outcomes.
Some of the horses I’ve done this with have then proceeded to reach out for the bit and continue reaching out all the way down until their nose is just above the ground, go a few steps and then raise their head to a more normal level. When the horse does this I try to keep very light contact or I just let the reins slip through my fingers if the movement is too sudden for me to keep the contact light and supple, and I keep on using my legs. Of course if I let the reins slip through my fingers I have to re-adjust them when the horse’s head comes up.
Unstable contact - and again, caused by the lack of understanding in « back to front » riding.
Other horses bring their heads down to a more normal position, with their nose leading and their throatlatch open. I make sure to move my hands FORWARD so that I do not accidentally bump the horse’s mouth and cause another inversion.
No contact is indeed better than an unsteady one.
This takes sympathetic hands, a lot of time, and a consistent rider.
This takes a good understanding of horse and rider’s biomechanic aka taking lessons.
If you do this well, and you have enough patience, at some point the horse will indicate that his body is working properly, and only then can a rider get more ambitious without causing harm to the horse.
Problem is, most people need eyes on the ground to validate if what they are doing is right or wrong…
Lessons.
Yet the OP doesn’t want lessons.
I’d be very curious of a horse who is being leased out by people the owner never saw riding or said a thing about the horse’s training. - Here’s a free horse…
OP, ask for that video but don’t be surprise if the horse goes exactly like it goes for you…
You clearly are not paying for a well trained schoolmaster. It’s, as it was define, a good horse - ride for fun and don’t stress for the rest.
I agree with above.
What you need are dressage lessons.
Contact by a rider is not learned overnight, or in a week or in a month.
The reason he is leaning and inverting is his response to untrained hands. This is not your fault as you do not know what you do not know.
Take a bit. Close your eyes and get someone to hit the bit hard on your nose.
No don’t really do that because it will hurt like h###, but did you wince when imagining it?
That is what a bit in untrained hands feels like to a horse.
He can lessen the pain 2 ways, one by leaning on the bit to lessen the hands. The 2nd by Inverting and backing off the contact to get away from the hands.
If you do not want to have lessons you are better off riding him on a loose rein and not worrying about the head.
For you legs mean forward. Reins mean turn and stop. Don’t use legs and reins together.
I do take lessons, as I’ve said. I work with a trainer two-three days a week - just not on this horse. My trainer doesn’t travel and this horse is not at the barn I lesson at. I like my trainer and I work for these lessons. I’m not paying for the lease because the woman was pregnant/has a new baby and just needs someone to exercise her horse, and I can’t afford to pay for a lease. It works out well for us. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to pick any fancy horse and any fancy trainer they want. I did not see the owner ride because she was pregnant when I met her and unable to do so, this is also something I have stated. I do not appreciate comments about my riding ability. You can infer all you want but no one knows my ability but myself and those who have seen me ride. Just because I do not compete or do dressage does not mean I’m content to just ride around on a loose rein like I’m on a pony ride at a town fair. I’ve been riding for over 10 years. I’m not the best rider in the world but I have some concept of what I’m doing. I’m asking for ways I might be able to do better. Give helpful tips beyond “stop trying" or “take lessons”, if you have them. If you don’t, or if you just lack basic reading comprehension skills, use what little self control you might have and refrain from commenting.
Why not ask your trainer for advice?
No one can teach you how to deal with this issue over the internet.
You are exercising someone else’s horse. Did the owner ask you to train the horse? You may unwittingly cause more issues if you try to “train” it.
As @alibi_18 says, fooling around with his head and mouth is a bad idea, you must to use your seat and leg.
Alibi_18 said:
And this is called riding front to back.
It could also cause a lot of distress to the OP’s horse as we don’t know what bit is being used, how the horse was trained and how the OP rides.
This « technique » could lead to a lot a dangerous outcomes.
No, it’s not. The technique of lifting the reins does not cause distress as there is no pulling involved. I believe the technique keeps contact with the mouth and teaches the horse that lifting the head doesn’t evade contact (the point of lifting the head for horses). Trainers in certain disciplines use this, and no, it doesn’t lead to dangerous outcomes. Remember, there is no pulling.
We do something similar to encourage the horse to take the bit and stretch. When it works right the horse stretches to the bit, stretches over the back, and starts to track up behind. In the old dressage manuals there is something similar called “combing the reins.” You can also easily reach ths in hand as part of your warmup flexions routine.
Why so defensive and rude? You asked for opinions.
Did the owner of the horse ask you to train it or to exercise it?
Yes. Also if someone is asking on a chat group how to solve basic holes in a horse’s training the obvious conclusion has to be, you don’t have the skills to fix those holes. That’s not an insult. It’s just the reality. Lots of people ride their whole lives and don’t have much in the way of training skills.
Having spent a lot of time teaching it has long been my observation that you can read endless explanations on how to do something, It has also been my observation that a lot of explanations make no sense until you can do it. and feel it. And that almost always takes a translator (instructor).
You don’t know what you don’t know until you know it.
Only a fortunate few are born with the instinctive knowledge to “put a horse together”, the rest of us learn the hard way.
I am just concerned that a 22 year old horse with ‘no topline’ doesn’t have the strength to carry himself as you want and may have some issues in the hind end - there are many that do not show as lame but keep a horse from carrying over the back. If it were a younger horse I would say take your time to get him muscled up with a topline. An older horse needs a workup from a vet before you start on a program like that.
Typically lateral work will help with the ‘carrying’ - a few steps of leg yield, keeping your hands with light, steady contact. I mean a ‘few’, like 3, on the long side. Inside leg to outside rein and all that. also, start in walk and see if you can get medium walk, square halt, medium walk, leg yield in walk, before going to trot work.
Why so defensive and rude? You asked for opinions.
Did the owner of the horse ask you to train it or to exercise it?
I asked specifically for tips, concrete things I might be able to do to help this horse and myself in our rides together. The musings about my riding ability and the encouragements to just give up trying to ride properly altogether are unwelcome. My response to such unhelpful and frankly illegitimate “opinions” was hardly rude.
Whether I have the skills to fix something or not is my own prerogative — sure, maybe I don’t. Maybe nothing I try will work. But I’m not asking for strangers to decide that for me. I’m asking for something very specific and that’s all. If you cannot offer that, you can leave the rest up to me. I do not need to be told things I already know — ie, I am not a trainer. And I don’t need to be told to do things I’ve stated multiple times that I’m already doing — ie, take lessons.
Thank you to those who have actually responded with helpful remarks. I will be ignoring future comments that belie an underdeveloped understanding of what I have now repeatedly expressed as being my desired outcome in asking for help on this thread.
Circles, on either rein, starting with 20 metres as they are easier on the horse. Decreasing circles, spiralling in and then out and that should encourage the horse to use himself and soften. Soft hands, no pressure and use your shoulders. Contact comes from you seat and leg. It does not involve force.
