It comes with the territory. This is NOT the place to get wind blown up your skirt. Whining doesn’t go down too well.
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I have been using the technique I described for about 35 or so years.
My parents gave me their “brain with a screw loose” pasture ornament mare years and years ago. She had several defenses against the bit, and I did not blame the mare at all, they were “given” a 1/2’’ too wide Tom Thumb western “snaffle mouth” curb bit to use on this poor mare.
This mare’s favorite defenses were balking, bolting, and always going around inverted, even trotting in the pasture. She came equipped with a standing martingale. After my first ride I invested in hollow mouth double bridle bits, hit my books, in D’endrodny’s (sp?) “Give Your Horse a Chance” I came across this solution. I started using it (yes, even in the double bridle), this mare was the one who put her nose all the way to the ground.
It took me six months to make her safe to ride. At the end of the six months I could ride her in a snaffle, no noseband, no martingale, and, when I desired, on loose reins without any balking, bolting, or inversions. She reached confidently for contact, kept contact willingly, and obeyed the lightest rein aids, unlike at the beginning. She finally ended up as a family’s beloved riding horse, kids and all.
After that initial six months I never had to use this technique again. At one time I did use a Chambon while lunging (twice I think), and after that she stopped inverting trotting around in her pasture. After that it was pretty smooth sailing and I rode her safely all around, mostly on trails since I did not have access to a proper ring for a long time.
I have used this technique on several horses since then. They all ended up carrying their heads in the proper place for the riding I was doing, stopped inverting, stopped running away, and stopped disobeying my rather light rein aids.
Of course while doing this technique the rider has to use her/his legs to get the horse to reach out to the bit and keep good contact. I ALWAYS use my legs when I ride, to encourage the horse to stretch out to soft contact with the bit. I ride back to front (legs first, then hand) all the time.
This may sound harsh, my apologies if it does. I consider riding “front to back” as having over a pound of force with contact (except at a full gallop, then stronger contact is fine), on a horse with a dropped/flash/crank noseband so tight that it is impossible for the horse to gape at the mouth, with the rider depending on THICK thigh rolls on their saddles to avoid being pulled forward while the horse goes behind the vertical, then having to violently gouge the horse with non-gentle spurs to keep the horse moving with any impulse.
When I started riding 50 years ago my riding teacher (BHSI Morven Park graduate) told me that riding so that the horse was behind the vertical was a MAJOR RIDING SIN, and that if other riders saw me riding with my horse behind vertical they would think that I knew NOTHING about proper riding.
But again that was 50 years ago. Times sure have changed.
All three of my riding teachers in the last 15 years, two of them with over 40 years of experience, LIKE what I do with their horses even when I am limited to a walk and trot. They like how their lesson horses who learned to avoid contact end up voluntarily reaching out for contact from my leg aids, accepting contact, and obeying my rein aids without gaping (most of the time, sometimes I have to get a little emphatic for a second), inverting, running away, or boring down on the bit so the rider ends up “carrying” the weight of the horse’s head, all the while obeying my lower leg, thigh, seat and rein aids, all without any noseband at all. And I accomplish all of this from one 30 minute ride a week. Usually then the horses also are better for my riding teacher’s other students (some horses just do not like beginning riders while loving advanced riders).
Dressage is NOT the only school of educated riding out there, not at all.
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It would be super-helpful for you to ask the trainer you work with for tips. She/he at least knows how you ride, even if she’s not familiar with the horse.
I’d agree with other posters that the behavior you’re describing sounds like an evasion. Evasions can occur for multiple reasons, however.
One is that the horse was simply never taught to do what you’re asking, and so needs additional training.
Another is that you may be asking the horse to do something that it knows how to do, but your cues/aids are wrong or not what the horse has learned. This requires additional training for both you and, possibly, the horse.
And a third possible reason is that the movement you’re asking for is physically difficult, impossible, or painful for the horse.
With a 22-year-old horse, I’d worry a lot about the latter possibility, especially the “painful” part. The pain might be caused by some hock arthritis or back-soreness, both of which will impede the horse taking contact and rounding the back up. I’ll go further and say that it would be an unusual 22-year-old horse that did not have at least some hock arthritis. The fact that the horse seems to go around happily when he is not in the “proper frame” may just be evidence that that is how he is most comfortable.
So, you asked for specific tips: 1) ask your trainer about riding correctly to achieve the ends you desire.
2) Ask the horse’s owner if she has had the same kind of difficulty you seem to be having, and if the horse has ever had any issues with hock or back soreness.
3) Check the horse yourself for back-soreness: run your thumbnail or a pen or pencil along the spine–does the horse drop his back? You might want to bring the vet in.
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This. I had a free lease several years ago of a 20 y.o. Morgan. He really was in very good condition but went nose up, back hollow with tiny trot steps and a Pepe Le Pew canter. It took three weeks to get any improvement in the trot, but it did happen. I only had him for two months so the canter never got there. I guess too many years of bad riding can’t be undone quickly.
If nothing else you can use your time to perfect your circles. And enjoy the ride.
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When you post a query asking for advice on fixing a basic training hole, or indeed anything, you will get a range pf responses as people genuinely speak from their own often significant experience. Some of those suggestions will be useful to your situation, some will not, some will be things you can’t do or have tried and failed at with this horse.
The productive response is to engage with the answers that are useful and ignore the ones that aren’t.
When you blast back at us all.fir “,underestimating” you, you create a profile of yourself as defensive, uninterested in learning, and not someone we want to continue engaging with.
If you knew the answer to your question you wouldn’t be asking. So we are not underestimsting you in that you don’t know the answer.
We know nothing about you except what you tell us, and what we can infer from your tone and voice here.“Get a trainer” is basic advice for solving all kinds of problems. If it’s not possible at your situation there is no need to blow up at people giving the best basic advice.
This is a board with many experienced riders who understand that we all need to start somewhere and we all have gaps in our skill sets. Having a gap is not a bad thing, and asking for advice us commendable… But asking for advice and then getting pissy about being given advice is not commendable.
Based on your details, ten years riding and doing chores for lessons elsewhere, I’m going to guess you are a teenager. You don’t know what you don’t know and this is likely your first time you have to school a horse with issues on your own. That’s all fine. You are just at the very start of your riding journey.
But if you come onto a board full of older adult lifetime riders and trainers, remember that some courtesy gets you a long ways and that having a hissy fit about bring disrespected impresses noone. Rather it gives us the impression you are not that interested in learning.
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YOU’RE NOT LISTENING TO ME… Do exactly what i want and don’t give me your other opinions.
Your reaction to people’s critiques may just be indicative to your response to that borrowed horse’s unwillingness to do what you ‘say’. I suggest you lighten up on the horse. And try to think of things from the horse’s point of view.
Will you be there with the OP to remember not to pull on the rein and use that technique sympathetically?
The OP is, as per the OP, not a trainer.
I’ve seen it done by individuals who didn’t knew better.
I’ve seen the results…
We do something similar to encourage the horse to take the bit and stretch. When it works right the horse stretches to the bit, stretches over the back, and starts to track up behind. In the old dressage manuals there is something similar called “combing the reins.” You can also easily reach the in hand as part of your warmup flexions routine.
Same goes for this…
Something similar might not be enough and I will reiterate, dangerous.
Wanna see a horse rear?
As for the « no pulling » - The horse who’s lifting its head is evading contact. By raising the hands, in order to regain contact, one has to be somehow pulling - it’s the opposite of pushing the horse to the contact.
Don’t get me wrong, it works in a way but it is still « front to back » riding as in, you focus on the head and not on activating the hind first.
And my comment about letting it go and just enjoy the ride goes hand in hand with@Alpha Mare’s post - you have to be careful with a 22yrs old horse with no topline - who might have been ridden inverted all its life.
OP, call the owner and ask her questions.
That should have been done the beginning of the lease.
That’s the best advice you could get.
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I agree that our technique of lifting the reins requires more finesse than most intermediate riders have. My coach has stopped trying to teach it to most of her students because they didn’t have the tact to get the release and follow down into soft contact. I was just commenting we use something similar to what was described.
We teach the horse to seek contact when we lift up and then push him forward with our legs. The lift up should be very brief, like 2 seconds, just a cue for horse to stretch. If it goes on any longer you are just creating inversion. It’s a cue rather than a pull if that makes sense. The idea is to encourage bascule and lifting the back and striding up with the hind legs.
I didn’t initially suggest it because (a) you can’t teach it via message and (b) most intermediate riders can’t use it effectively. It worked wonders on my horse but was hard for me to do effectively for years.
I’ve also seen riders get the same effect riding on a loose rein in warmup and doing circles with inside bend.
You can infer all you want but no one knows my ability but myself and those who have seen me ride.
This is where you are totally incorrect. The one who knows how you can ride is the horse. He knows from the moment you sit on his back.
Are you sitting so your seat bones are sticking into his back and making him hollow. Are you sitting so as you are asking his back to round?
Are you lifting your core to ask him forward or are you using your heels to kick?
It does not matter how many years you have been riding or what pieces of paper you have to say you can ride. That horse knows more about you than you know about that horse from the moment you mount.
We know how you can ride by what your horse is telling you, because we have learned to listen to horses. You are right we are not listening to you. We are listening to the horse.
A 22 year old horse has earned respect. He has earned the right to have an easier ride, not someone who, as I said is hurting him with the bit.
Saying ride on a loose rein is much nicer and no pain from the bit and extra pressure from a rider who wants to do what a younger horse should be doing, but will not be free.
Saying not use legs and reins together also keeps you safe. It is not a naughty horse that bucks, rears, spins and or bolts.
It is a horse who does not understand that bucks, rears, spins or bolts.
Your horse does understand because instead of rearing he is leaning or going hollow.
At the moment he is talking to you. If you do not listen he will have nothing left to do except yell.
It is great you are having lessons. Tell your trainer what you have told us.
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Again, this is a horse you have been allowed to exercise. He’s not your horse, he is 22 years old, lifts his head and hollows when you ride him and has “no topline”.
There is no reason for you to be asking this horse to produce a “round frame” for you, he is 22 and has little muscle. If he is capable of achieving the “frame” you want it will take a long time for him to develop the musculature to be “round” as you want him to be.
I think that the people here who have given you advice on how to manipulate the reins have unwittingly done the horse (and it’s owner) a disservice. Please don’t try to put the horse in a round frame when he hasn’t the musculature for self carriage. Ask your trainer how you can ride best to encourage him to step under himself, using your seat and legs. Leave his head alone for now. Even with the best intentions you may make him sore and unhappy, if he isn’t already.
Talk to his owner and see if they are OK with you attempting to put their old guy in a “round” frame.
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Thanks for this, I could have used this years ago!
By the way, here is the Amazon link for the book, if anyone is interested:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AH4QEXQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
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Yes, good advice.
I should however point out that the advice Jackie Cochran was giving as I understood it and that I tried to echo was not about making a horse “round.” Quite the opposite. It was about getting the horse to stretch over the back and neck, accept light contact and track up behind. The horse described by the OP would benefit from this to help fix both inverting and dumping on the forehand. He would need to be completely confirmed in moving like this in all gaits before you would want to start anything like collection or poll flexion. At his age you might not ever get to those.
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Maybe “round" was the wrong terminology. I’m not a dressage rider so I may just be using this term incorrectly. I didn’t mean to imply that I wanted him to just “look” proper, and to be and in the “correct frame” for any reason other than I fear that something I am doing is hurting his back. I don’t care about collection. I want him to get his legs underneath him and to stop inverting because I am very worried some issue in my riding is causing him discomfort, or that by continuing to ride him the way I have been I am decreasing his longevity as a workable horse. I truly don’t care about aesthetics and I hope I haven’t presented myself as if I do, I am solely concerned for his wellbeing and I don’t want to be riding him in a way that hurts him. I also just want to be a better rider. If trying to make him get his hindquarters engaged, bring his back up and put his neck down will hurt him MORE I obviously don’t want to do that. Again, I am not showing, and I have nothing to prove, I just want to ride as well as I can and make this horse as comfortable as I can.
I do make every attempt to ride back to front and at least believe I have soft/light hands. The horse may rightly believe otherwise, I do not know. He hasn’t thrown his head or seemed to fight against me, so maybe my own ignorance has prevented me from acknowledging that I am being too rough despite my own opinion. I am going to try to just be even softer and see if that makes a difference before I try anything else that has been suggested.
I haven’t asked my trainer about it because I am concerned she might be unhappy with me if she learns I am riding at another barn. I like her but I am uninterested in engaging with her outside of my fixed time in my lessons/work schedule.
I apologize if I have characterized myself as someone who is whiny or stubborn. I really am eager to learn. I am fully aware that other individuals are vastly more experienced and knowledgable than I am. It is just frustrating to be told over and over again to do something you have already expressed you are doing. I also still maintain that it isn’t fair to tell someone who is eager to do better to just stop trying. I also found some of the comments to be dismissive or somewhat classist, but I do understand (or at least hope) that they came primarily out of a concern for the best interests of this horse.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that I am not a teenager but a single, adult woman. I have mentioned that I am 24 (today is in fact my birthday.) I went to college and work very hard for what I have. It is upsetting to encounter people who seem to be unaware of how privileged they are to be able to afford certain things and offhandedly recommend them to others, like dressage lessons, and then ignore me when I say I can’t afford it.
That being said, thank you for your input. I have acknowledged my own misunderstandings and I hope you might be able to as well.
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This is a wonderful post as it shows you are willing to have an open mind, and please do not think of me as being elitist, as you said we have the horses best interest at heart, but we also have your best interest at heart as well.
We all understand not being able to afford lessons, after all poverty is owning a horse!
Please understand that when we are saying you need lessons it comes from knowledge, it doesn’t matter if is from the lady down the road or in my case I have taught my husband to ride and allow him to yell at me!
What matters is getting good instruction in real life and at the moment with you not knowing what you do not know, you can not tell a good instructor from a bad instructor.
Actually the most concerning part of your story is that you are working for lessons (great) and having 3 lessons a week (great), but came on to ask this particular question, which is not great as it means that your instructor has not taught you.
So again I will say loose reins, you saying you will try to have soft reins actually in reality probably means you will give at the incorrect time, which will cause him to lean.
Can you see you are in a catch 22? You can not do what you do not know what to do and trying to do what you do not know what to do means teaching him the wrong thing to do and putting unnecessary pressure, not only on his mouth, but also his body and even worse than that his mind. Their minds are so important as a stressing horse can not learn.
Also horses suffer in silence. If he was whimpering like a kitten or yelping like a puppy when you incorrectly use contact you would drop the reins and ride with loose reins in a second, because we know that you love horses and are a good person. We know that, as we think good of you.
Instead of yelping he is inverting. Please use loose reins and continue enjoying just being with him and riding him.
On horses that do not understand, as said by someone else above, using the reins and legs together teach a horse to rear. If they rear and go over backwards it can kill you … or worse
We are trying to keep you safe. Do not just jump on any horse and think you can use reins and legs together. Only trained horses you can do that with, until you are good enough to train yourself.
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You’ve got a lot of excellent feedback, so I’m chiming in as a fellow rider who has a horse that is incredibly difficult to get to work through her back.
My mare sounds very similar to the horse you ride and I’ve now ridden her for 7-8 years and owned her for 6 so I have a long history. Horses that don’t work through their back can be incredibly frustrating to work with, and it’s an issue that takes years to correct. While the issue may stem in part from your riding, there is also a component of the communication between you and the horse that is more likely the issue. Given that you are only able to ride him twice a week, there is going to be an element of his inability that results from irregular work, but that doesn’t have to stop you from working to make him the best horse possible.
I know you’re unable to have lessons on the horse, so I would really recommend lungeing him, preferably fully tacked up with side reins/Vienna reins/running reins. Something to simulate the contact you are hoping to achieve. If you don’t own any, your trainer may be willing to let you borrow some for a day. By lunging him you will be able to see when he is moving through his back and help correct the issue from the ground which is always a good start. This will take a while to help build him up, but helped my mare a lot when I had her in full work.
Another thing I do is to ride my mare verrry slowly while emphasizing good contact. I’m talking rivaling the western pleasure horses slow. By slowing down they are unable to escape through speed and it also forces them to work harder. Working slowly and incorporating ground poles/Calvetti is even better.
It is so great that you are willing to learn, and there has been so much great advice. Just understand that horses like this can be extremely difficult to work with and improvement is a very slow process. My mare unfortunately just received some very bad training by a former owner and as a result, I have to deal with it. Every horse is different so try not to blame yourself too much, you are trying to help him as much as possible and you have been riding and in consistent training enough that it sounds to me like the horse had some bad training over riding incapability on your part.
Good luck!
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Please do not take the above advice to just borrow side reins and lunge him in them.
Again if you do not know how to use side reins, you need to be taught how to use side reins correctly.
It is not side reins that kill and maim horses. It is incorrectly used side reins that kill and maim horses.
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@SuzieQNutter I do not know how to use side reins. I have never lunged with any additional tack. But, I had the thought of asking my trainer to show me how during my work hours – I know she uses them often when lunging her new 5 year-old unbroken mare. I would use them myself only with the owners permission of course, and with full disclosure of my own limited experience. Does this sound unwise?
I really really really would like to hear that you are going to have a vet look at this horse if you are thinking of forcing his position, which side reins/vienna reins will do. You are not a kind person if you think just pulling his head down fixes his back.
There is no wrong question. Ask questions.
You can learn from anyone, even if you learn what you would never do.
Watch, Watch, Watch.
Watch her lunge. Watch her ride. Watch her giving lessons. Soak it all in, and that is free. (I hope)
Don’t get in the way. Don’t talk while she is giving a lesson. Write down questions and ask later. Be a pleasure to be around. If something needs picking up pick it up. If you see a weed pull it up.
Side reins are not a gadget. You never use side reins to pull in a horse’s head. You don’t ride in side reins. You don’t walk a horse in sidereins as it can cause a lateral walk.
You should be able to lunge without side reins in walk trot and canter with voice aids, you can start that now.
Then you add way too long side reins. The horse MUST NEVER GO BACKWARDS.
Then you tighten them to what you will think is still way too long. It will take a week. To start with nothing will happen. Then you will see a drop. You will see a penny drop. You will see a difference by the end of the week.
You can lunge a horse at a higher level than you are riding.
Remember that 10 minutes in side reins is equal to an hour of riding and you are lunging a senior horse. A 20 year old horse is considered equal to a 60 year old man. A 24 year old horse is equal to a 70.5 year old man. You would not expect a 70 year old man to be put to very hard work.
Personally I REFUSE to use elasticised side reins. I use solid side reins. Elasticised side rains can teach them to lean and you already have that problem.
Lunging is as much as a skill as riding. As with having a horse between your leg and rein. You have the horse between your whip and rein. You want to see the horse going forward, tracking up and with the poll the highest.
I took some video of Stars lunging last week
I can send you the link if you like.
As above said he must be completely sound before you start working a horse
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