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horse goes from leaning on the bit to hollow frame

Dressage
#41

I’d spend more time in the walk. Older campaigners will likely take much more time to warm up properly as compared to their younger selves. Warm up the walk with serpentines, halt/walk/halt transitions, leg yield/halfpass zig zags, etc. for 15-20min and see if that improves his connection later in the ride.

I’m also Team Don’t Push This Horse given his age and presumably gaps in his work history. It takes a significant amount of focused effort and time to rebuild conditioning as they age. Find a low-key way to get him moving without overly stressing his body-- minimal repetitions of high-impact work, minimal small circles until/unless he’s demonstrated he can sit and carry comfortably, and so forth.

More generally, horses invert or lean when they’re not strong enough either structurally or muscularly to do the work. Build the right muscle, and the leaning/inverting will go away. But you can’t build the right muscle in a horse that’s structurally unsound.

3 Likes
#42

Hi again. I am currently working a horse who used to invert before I started riding him. He is croup high and has one of the worst swaybacks I’ve ever seen in a riding horse.

He no longer inverts. He is much, much better with contact now, reaching out willingly to take the bit. His back is weak but getting stronger.

The way I ride to protect his weak back (and I am totally sure that a lot of people will say I’m wrong) is, when his back feels like it is not supporting my seat are:

  1. I move my seat-bones as far forward as I can in the saddle, almost glued to the pommel (be careful not to bruise yourself.) If that is not enough then I
  2. Rock forward on my seat-bones/thighs until there is almost no weight on my seat bones. This is called a “crotch seat”. If that is not enough I
  3. Get up into two point.
    I then ride the horse until I feel his back “swinging”, then I can cautiously sink down into the saddle. Repeat as needed. You WILL build stronger thigh muscles, but be careful not to grip with your knees.

About raising the hands and using the legs. I am now going to talk about what to do at the walk because if you cannot fix this first at the walk a gaping hole in this horse’s training will result.

The first thing I do with an inverted horse is to alternate my legs at the walk. I do this in a smooth motion from my lower thigh down to my heel, following the horse’s barrel as it swings away from my leg. I tend to keep my hands a little further apart, fingers relaxed, and I keep breathing. I alter my weight in the saddle as described above according to the relaxation of his back muscles (relaxed, not limp back muscles.)

If that does not work I then raise both hands up to parallel the cheek strap, making sure to avoid the horse’s eyes, while I am continuing to alternate my legs. I keep the contact LIGHT, my hand is loose and my fingers are relaxed. The horse will not reach out for the bit if the hands feel hard and stiff. My seat is still light.

As his head goes down I MOVE MY HANDS FORWARD and even lighten my contact and relax my hand more. If that is not enough I separate my fingers some and let the reins slip through my fingers. I still alternate my legs and I keep my seat light.

I have used this system on several horses the past decade or so, all school or “dumped” horses and NONE OF THEM offered to rear.

AT THE SAME TIME I am trying to sit as lightly as possible in the saddle, with my seat bones as forward as I can get them. I still use the leg aids as described, following the horse’s barrel as it moves away from my lower leg.

When I keep contact, following the horse’s head, I emphasize the forward motion of my hand by relaxing my fingers when the head is the furthest forward, “inviting” the horse to reach further forward and down.

When I am ever worried about causing a horse to rear (especially balkers) I do one rein to the side, somewhat down, smoothly, with hands that grip the reins but not terribly tense, release and then ask for a turn on the forehand. I’ve never heard of a horse rearing from doing a turn on the forehand.

I really hope this helps you. Bless you for helping a pregnant woman out. May this horse respond calmly and start learning to enjoy being ridden.

1 Like
#43

@Alpha Mare I appreciate your concern, but I don’t think anything, I was just going based off the suggestion. That’s why I asked. It was just a thought, and not one I had independently. Please do not imply that I am an unkind person or put words into my mouth.

I also do not feel comfortable asking a vet to come out and look at a horse that isn’t my own. I can ask the owner if it is appropriate, and I stated I would do so before doing anything else. If you think it generally unwise considering my position, you can say so.

1 Like
#44

You’re going to guess that she’s a teenager based on various clues, but you could also read her post. She said she’s 24.

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#45

The information about her age was not in the original post nor available when I made this guess. The response with her age was put up after I made the guess.

#46 
 She reported her age in post #3, which appears not to have been edited.
2 Likes
#47

Just trying again as it said unapproved and did not post.

Originally posted by scoldingspoon View Post
SuzieQNutter I do not know how to use side reins. I have never lunged with any additional tack. But, I had the thought of asking my trainer to show me how during my work hours – I know she uses them often when lunging her new 5 year-old unbroken mare. I would use them myself only with the owners permission of course, and with full disclosure of my own limited experience. Does this sound unwise?
There is no wrong question. Ask questions.

You can learn from anyone, even if you learn what you would never do.

Watch, Watch, Watch.

Watch her lunge. Watch her ride. Watch her giving lessons. Soak it all in, and that is free. (I hope)
Don’t get in the way. Don’t talk while she is giving a lesson. Write down questions and ask later. Be a pleasure to be around. If something needs picking up pick it up. If you see a weed pull it up.

Side reins are not a gadget. You never use side reins to pull in a horse’s head. You don’t ride in side reins. You don’t walk a horse in sidereins as it can cause a lateral walk.

You should be able to lunge without side reins in walk trot and canter with voice aids, you can start that now.

Then you add way too long side reins. The horse MUST NEVER GO BACKWARDS.

Then you tighten them to what you will think is still way too long. It will take a week. To start with nothing will happen. Then you will see a drop. You will see a penny drop. You will see a difference by the end of the week.

You can lunge a horse at a higher level than you are riding.

Remember that 10 minutes in side reins is equal to an hour of riding and you are lunging a senior horse. A 20 year old horse is considered equal to a 60 year old man. A 24 year old horse is equal to a 70.5 year old man. You would not expect a 70 year old man to be put to very hard work.

Personally I REFUSE to use elasticised side reins. I use solid side reins. Elasticised side rains can teach them to lean and you already have that problem.

Lunging is as much as a skill as riding. As with having a horse between your leg and rein. You have the horse between your whip and rein. You want to see the horse going forward, tracking up and with the poll the highest.

I took some video of Stars lunging last week
I can send you the link if you like.

3 Likes
#48

It has occurred to me that the main problem here is not that the OP cannot afford dressage lessons but with the quality of the education she is presently receiving.

I will put on my well worn flame suit now.:lol:

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#49

The two biggest things I have been told by trainers that made the biggest difference for me:

  1. the horse should be staying at the gait you put him in without you having to constantly ask him to keep going. If you are having to work to keep him walking at a good pace, or staying at the trot you want without slowing down on his own, the first thing to work on is getting that forward-looking that he will maintain on his own. Lots of good articles on how to do this.

  2. the force coming from the hind end on the horse should always be much greater than the force you have applied to the reins. This implies that you know not to ever pull back on the contact, and how to have (and keep) a steady contact that follows the horse’s natural movements at all gaits, which is not easy. And it doesn’t mean “take a strong hold of the face then kick to get more from behind”, you have to have #1 well established with the forward before you can really think about getting the contact to shape the energy.

And then, at least from what I have been taught, all the other exercises and figures will help to strengthen both sides evenly, straighten and bend correctly, basically little body building and stretching exercises for the horse. But it has to start with the forward. And if you do exercises and lose the forward, you have to go right back to getting the forward again.

1 Like
#50

Ahem.

I remember when I had just 10 years as a serious rider (as opposed to just trail riding in South America on thoroughly quieted down horses.)

It took me another decade before it started to make sense, then another decade before I could make a truly educated decision about what I heard or read.

Then I read Udo Burger’s “The Way to Perfect Horsemanship” and it all started to make sense and I started to get the results I wanted because I finally learned the why and how of timing my aids in relation to the horse’s stride.

Then a drunk driver swerved into my lane and hit me head on. I could not ride for three years as it was just too painful for my back. It also caused an MS exacerbation that lasted well over a decade (I was undiagnosed.)

The past 15 years I’ve spent refining my riding (just at the walk and trot), and due to my discussions with my riding teacher I learned to effectively verbalize what I’ve learned.

I admire the OP. She is working HARD so she can ride/get lessons three times a week, a very good use of her time. The thing is that a rider has to get out and ride less perfect horses so she can learn to successfully apply what she has learned. She has done so.

Good for you OP!

I guess I am an odd-ball, right now I consider most (not all) dressage lessons as a waste of money because of the utter mania and insistence of riding the horses behind the vertical. Yeah, I’m old fashioned. Besides that the OP has told us she cannot afford to pay for lessons, that is why she is working for the lessons she is getting now. Where in the world do you expect this young lady to get the $75.00 to $100.00 to pay for these supposedly superior dressage lessons?

The OP has gone above and beyond to educate herself. I respect that a lot.

So how exactly do you know that her riding teacher is not teaching her properly? What I see is that her riding teacher has taught her students well enough that they do not torment the horse into inverting, so she did not have to learn how to deal with this one problem. From what she wrote I gather that she HAS been learning how to deal effectively with other riding problems and knows enough to recognize that this problem also affects the horse’s back. I’ve run into experienced riders who would not be able to work this through, and they slap on the standing martingale to save their nose while the horse’s back, hocks and neck continue to deteriorate.

When I got my parent’s mare who inverted I had never run into that problem before. My own horse did not invert (and I did all the training as a beginner after his first two months of training thanks to Vladimir Littauer’s books), the lesson horses I’d ridden did not invert, and I had no idea, besides slapping on a standing martingale, of how to deal with it.

So I hit my equitation books. I learned how to deal with it. Now I pass that knowledge on to others, if they so choose to use it

OP, keep up the good work. You sound like the type of riding student that a lot of riding teachers would like since you are so determined to learn how to ride properly (even though it is not specifically dressage training.)

3 Likes
#51

Ok I missed that then.

#52

LOL Merrygoround, I also said something along those lines and I did not get flamed so I think we are safe.

OP says she does not want to be there when not working or in a lesson. If she can, being there when outside those times is when she can learn, she can sit and watch listen.

There is a 5yo warm blood being broken in. Is it being rewarded and praised? Is it being lunged for 10 minutes? Is it being pulled right in with side reins and forced to lunge for an hour. With being yelled at and whipped.

That will tell a lot about the trainer and the instruction.

OP should be as quiet and useful as they can and be taken under their wing as an enthusiastic rider to be mentored which can happen. Then she will learn more and be given better horses to lesson on with no extra cost.

… but that does not happen overnight and you do not want to happen at all if the trainer is pulling in with side reins, being harsh and lunging for an hour or more, before it is even broken in. If so run for the hills.

#53

This mare is being lunged for what seems to me like no more than 10 or 15 minutes. I’ve never timed it but I have no reason to believe this horse is being overworked or mistreated. She is a miraculously level headed baby, and has only gotten calmer since she was rescued.

The education I’m receiving is a riding school education. I’ve been here since I was a little kid and the program is clearly geared towards children. It is not discipline specific, the 7 horses very much fit the various stereotypes associated with naughty school horses, and it is true that I am hardly receiving the best education in the world. I wouldn’t say it’s the worst either, however, and is very close to where I live and a comfortable atmosphere for me to be in. I have never felt as if the horses were not being well taken care of.

This being something I do for pleasure in addition to doing what I actually went to school for — I have two other jobs — I’m not really in a position to go looking for another barn that I could both work and ride at. My options would be quite limited anyways, as there are very few places to ride near where I live, and I wouldn’t be able to sustain a long commute with my schedule or budget. Maybe things will change in the future but I have to make the best of my current situation right now and I’m perfectly content to do so.

2 Likes
#54

As you stay new horses will come in to be trained to be lesson horses. As you get better you will be put on the newer horses to help with their training, even if it is just in your lessons.

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#55

@SuzieQNutter yes this is something I am tasked with doing, and am grateful for the experience. Even if it is occasionally unpleasant lol.

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#56

scoldingspoon, when I went to a residential horse school for 3 months, the owner/teacher/trainer told us that she did not believe in training the young/young adult riders on perfectly trained horses. We were probably never going to run into perfectly trained horses at a public riding stable, and we would probably not be able to afford buying one.

HER advanced horses had, uh, problems, problems that made them unsuitable for elementary (beginning) riders. Her intermediate horses were further along in their training and went to a local college program. We students, both working and paying, got to ride the “advanced” horses. I think her thinking was when we got good enough to ride THESE horses we would have a great basis for dealing with most equines when we went out into the cold, cruel world.

You are getting a great education, one that you will be able to USE.

1 Like
#57

I would add that just because the lesson program is geared at children, does not mean the owner,/trainer doesn’t know what they are doing. Kiddies beginner lessons can be a useful and reasonably profitable niche market. Once a barn settles into that they have a certain range of horses and of clientele, true. But that does not necessarily define the trainer.

Obviously yeah, the trainer was probably never short listed for the Olympics. And it is possible the trainer is an idiot. But in between these two extremes it is much more likely the trainer had some competition success as a junior and young adult and knows a thing or two about schooling and training, but the nature of the program means there is little call to share this information with the ten year old beginners. Or the working students, even.

2 Likes
#58

@Jackie Cochran has given you a lot of good suggestions. Solid advice.

Another idea might be posting a video so we know what we are looking at.

Yet another alternative would be contacting a dressage trainer with a video. For example, Amelia Newcomb on youtube has a program where she critiques you by video. You would have to pay her fee, but it is a one time fee. Not quite the same as hiring another trainer over time.

There has also been a lot of noise. Ignore it. Typical, unavoidable forum “advice.”

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#59

i bought a horse that was very swaybacked (lordosis) just so that no one would ride him anymore. His back has strengthened by walking up and down hills in large pastures. I can’t imagine wanting to ride a horse with a very low back. I would feel too sorry for the horse the whole time.

#60

Interestingly you can ride a horse with constitutional lordosis. I follow on FB a local girl who has a couple of rescue saddlebreds with scary lordosis. I saw one of the horses IRL a while back and it was freaky. But she rides them w t c with no harm. They tend to go inverted and hot, there’s not much coherent performance she seems able to get out of them. But she manages to trail ride and even do some low level Western games. I was surprised. Good for her taking on rescue horses no one else would touch.

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