horse goes from leaning on the bit to hollow frame

[Jackie_Cochran]

@eightpondfarm

i bought a horse that was very swaybacked (lordosis) just so that no one would ride him anymore. His back has strengthened by walking up and down hills in large pastures. I can’t imagine wanting to ride a horse with a very low back. I would feel too sorry for the horse the whole time.

Well, let me see.

I spent thousands of dollars on a saddle which was short from front to back (Pegasus Butterfly jumping saddle), I was looking at other saddles but my choice was easy when I learned my riding teacher wanted me to ride this horse. I also use a Contender II BOT/ThinLine saddle pad with two bridging shims on each side.

I ride him 30 minutes, usually now just once a week.

I ride Forward Seat. It is absolutely no sweat for me to get my seat bones forward as far as I can, which is helped considerably by how this saddle is made.

If I feel distress from the horse I get into half seat, putting my weight forward, off my seat bones.

When that is not enough to make his back relax I get up into two point until his back starts swinging.

It may take a few minutes, but usually eventually when I sit back down in the saddle his back stays relaxed and swinging. If his back does not improve I get back up into two-point until his back “invites” me to sit down again.

Some rides I spend A LOT of time in two-point.

After we take the saddle off I scrub his back with the HandsOn grooming glove, pretty hard. He LOVES this, so the saddle just does not seem to hurt his back. Believe me if this horse hurts from something he makes sure the everyone around him knows about it.

When I started riding this horse he was an inverted balking mess, had an iron hard mouth, he backed up compulsively when he didn’t want to go somewhere, he had no true understanding of rein, leg or seat aids and he would LEAN on the reins. All this has changed, he has not inverted for many, many months, he strides forward freely, he willingly reaches for contact and now he responds to light, well timed rein aids (and my leg and seat aids too) and he only backs up when I ask him to (used to be his favorite defense against his riders.)

And yes, he still has a sway back. He is around 25 so this is not going to go away. I just ride him the best I can, I care deeply about his comfort, and this horse who used to try to disobey every command now cheerfully obeys my aids.

He is turning into a really neat little riding horse. He cannot help it he is one of the ugliest worst conformed riding horses I’ve seen in my life. The scowl that used to be on his face all the times has now turned into an expression of interest and he likes people a lot better than he used to. He even nuzzles me occasionally while I groom him.

And all of this is done under the eyes of my riding teacher who asked me to work him in case I could come up with some miracles. No miracles so far, just humane Forward Seat riding while accepting his considerable conformational limitations and a short enough saddle for his back, which has led to a MUCH more comfortable horse under saddle.

[polkadotedpony]

I just wanted to pop in to say that I feel you on the time/money/barn access constraints. I started riding when I was 5 but didn’t really learn anything about how to put a horse together until my teens since I too was in a kids lesson mill and then trail riding on the side situation. When I went to college I was stuck in mediocre hunter lessons as my only riding option with no emphasis on putting a horse together and the only good dressage training I got was when home on breaks with my high school trainer. In med school I finally lucked into an amazing dressage trainer that was part of an amateur schooling program and she taught me a ton, particularly about timing, feel and training aids. Unfortunately those skills really require a person on the ground giving you constant feedback to acquire and even with the best trainer learning that stuff on a school horse who gets ridden however the rest of the week is really challenging. Once that trainer got busy with her own career and left I was again stuck with mediocre hunter/no specific discipline trainers who honestly didn’t give me much in lessons aside from ride time. When I turned 30 and became established in my career and had money and time I bought a horse, found a wonderful trainer and now I actually get to make consistent progress and show.

The point of the whole above ramble is that as crappy as it is, there is no substitute for a great trainer on the ground to teach fundamental dressage skills and how to put a horse together correctly. I think at this point if I were you I would focus on learning as much as you can from the trainer you have and if they don’t have the skills to really progress you in the saddle, maybe you can still learn about horse care and other aspects of being a good horseman so you’ll be ready when your situation changes. You clearly want to learn and you clearly know enough to know what you don’t know and that your own trainer has limits and those are precious qualities. Keep your eye out for other better riding opportunities, I think they will come, but it can be random and take time. There is no shame in being stuck in a holding pattern with your lease horse or your trainer until the rest of your life allows you to have access to the trainers and horses you need to advance. I know it sucks, since I’ve lived it too.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I only could afford lessons, the group lessons that were included with my board (59 years ago, usually pasture board.) Until my last horse died I was horse poor my entire adult life.

When I got to the point that the riding teachers were DEMANDING me to do things that my angel from heaven first, at most green broke horse, said “NO, you are not doing it right and until you do I’m resisting”. All I got from the teachers was to do whatever caused his restiveness again, but harder.

I stopped taking those lessons. I dug out “Common Sense Horsemanship” by Vladimir Littauer and started rereading it (it was my favorite equitation book in high school when I was not riding.) My angel of a horse settled down when I started trying to interpret what Littauer was saying. I swore that “my hands belong to the horse’s mouth,” and I did my best to live up to it. My HORSE directly taught me good riding. Usually pleasant he was content to just sort of shuffle around within my riding abilities (thus angel horse.) This went on well over a decade.

I NEVER had the money to pay for professional training of my horses, my first green broke horse, my parent’s ruined mare, and the various weanlings I bought and raised up, learning how to do the basic training of a horse. Did I make mistakes? YES. But my horses forgave me when I went back, figuring that I was the one in error, hit my equitation books, and applied their advice to the best of my ability. Humanely. Vladimir Littauer’s books were my guiding lights.

My horses were my teachers, literally. I’ve never been rich enough to afford paying a good professional riding instructor or horse trainer.

I had to learn to do it myself. The horses judged how well I interpreted what certain high level equitation writers wrote about riding and training. As long as I stuck to the Forward Seat principles the horses forgave me my many faults, but ONLY if I corrected my equestrian sins.

After I bought and read Udo Burger’s “The Way to Perfect Horsemanship” and I learned the exact reasons and the “hows” of doing hand and leg aids it all finally come together. My horses lost all their resistances to my hands and legs. ALL my horses responded, my first horse, the crazy mare, the Paso Fino mare, my Arab stud colt, my Arab filly both at 4 years old, all horses who came to me either extremely green, ruined, or just introduced to being ridden.

I could have spent A LOT of money to “maybe” get this depth of education from a riding instructor.

Of course I benefitted greatly from my three months as a paying residential student ($900.00, 1977) at North Forks School of Equitation, under Kay Russell. She FINALLY got my seat forward in the saddle, my heels down, and by teaching me on her “advanced” horses with problems she gave me the tools so I could train horses even while my undiagnosed Multiple Sclerosis got worse and worse.

@scoldingspoon, you are on the right path. Keep up the good work, and listen to the horses you ride. THEY are your true teachers of riding and training.