Horse goes low/behind - which hand(s) to raise the head? *video downthread*

[Brown_Derby]

That “lil stretch” as you so innocently call it is murder! At my barn it is called the Turkey Testing exercise, as if your entire leg is being pulled like a turkey drumstick. If it pulls off your hip easily, the turkey is done. A brutal but effective exercise for relaxing and lengthening the leg.

OP, be careful about looking down so much; it affects your otherwise very nice posture and also makes me suspect that you are focusing on her head/the reins. It’s an easy habit to form.

Ride as it you have a mirror, even if you don’t.

Your mare is absolutely lovely and you’ve done a wonderful job thus far.

[SuzieQNutter]

@theresak

My trainer always says “close thigh, hold hand, add leg.”

Argh I can hear my instructor of instructors yelling at your trainer over the waves.

ALWAYS think, write and do. Leg before hand. Yes it is all done in the same millisecond but think leg first. It is the difference between riding back to front to riding front to back.

What people have said about the opening of elbows is what was meant when I said don’t spill your coffee. You don’t want hot boiling coffee going up and down or turning into piano hands, as you don’t want boiling water going down their neck.

You can put your whip (or a stick) horizontally under your thumbs. This will tell you if your hands are even and the same length, and yes you should be able to ride with your whip like that. Grumbles Suzie Q who was punished with riding like that in a lesson because of too busy hands.

[SuzieQNutter]

@Manni01

but she is busy giving me advice when I ride and doesn’t record my riding .

When I am videoing hubby. If I start instructing all you see is sand or trees!

I am just asking. I see that ride as a bit incorrect. If you want long and low the horse is supposed to take the bit down and forward. That ride the horse is behind the bit. Why does your trainer do this stretch behind the bit? Do you know? Can you ask for me?

[SadieRidingHorses]

I noticed your left wrist because I have the exact same problem, but was not sure if I was really seeing it or just projecting.

I like the wrist brace idea and might try it!

[sportyspicepony]

@Brown_Derby

That “lil stretch” as you so innocently call it is murder! At my barn it is called the Turkey Testing exercise, as if your entire leg is being pulled like a turkey drumstick. If it pulls off your hip easily, the turkey is done. A brutal but effective exercise for relaxing and lengthening the leg.

LOL if it didn’t make such a miraculous difference in my riding I would probably hate it more but it REALLY WORKS! what’s a few simple moments of excruciating pain for a better seat

[Manni01]

I know it… the problem is as I said that she likes to take over and is able pull you about of the saddle… I think you can see it at the beginning of the video, she tries to get the rider out of balance, with me she is usually successful, and especially at the end of the ride she insists … the trainer simply wanted her to be obedient. Now, some month later we can let her nose more forward… sorry was probably the wrong video I should have posted a more recent one.

[SuzieQNutter]

Thank you for clarifying and yes I think it should come with a warning that this is not what we are aspiring to do with training a horse. It is a moment in time.

Every horse will pull you out of the saddle if they can. In the saddle you have control. Out of the saddle you lose control and they can do what they want.

This is because every horse has read the same book. Not the one that says how to ride a circle, how to come through from behind or how to go with poll the highest.

Nooooo, they read the book that says how to get out of work, thou should roll after being washed or standing in water with a rider , thou should fart when hind hoof is picked out, etc.

It is your stomach muscles that stop this.

You can do it on a chair. Relax your tummy. Slump your shoulders, put your heels up and have someone pull you forward with reins.

Now sit up straight, square shoulders, tighten your stomach muscles, put your heels down and have them pull on the reins again.

[Manni01]

This is kind of derailing the thread sorry for it OP… that’s why I can’t really answer you, but I can assure you that my trainer is extremely knowledgeable about the right way to train a horse and she had to change a lot of bad habits of me . But as ai said it’s derailing this thread. And I still think her hands are pretty ok

[J-Lu]

Great advice so far! Opinions are a dime a dozen so here is my 10 cents.

I think you both look great in the video for her being a 4 year old. Unlike others, I’d suggest you lengthen the reins a bit of for periods of time where she’s not hitting the wall of your hands. Especially at the walk and trot - have more forgiving and open hands for a four year old. Also, I suggest sitting up and developing your core more for w-t-w transitions. Really follow with your hands in the walk to encourage her to use her body and stretch into contact.

I recomment watching Eliza Sydnor Romm’s whole young horse series to see what I’m talking about - there are relevant tidbits for you in terms of frame, contact, brain and body development, and timeframes to improve. This horse isn’t great in the contact like yours but he’s coming 4. Most 4 year olds are struggling with balance and contact and it is too early to expect much. I believe she develops a great foundation for a competition future up the levels - the proof is in her pudding:

How To Start A Young Horse Series - Part 2

You can find the other videos in the series on her youtube channel. They are all great! They go through training baby leg yields, canter, etc.

[J-Lu]

Here is her video on coming 4 year old contact:

How To Start A Young Horse - Part13 -Exploring The Contact

[eightpondfarm]

when i slow the video all they way down to .25 i see many posts that aren’t in sync with the legs. Is that intentional?

[Scribbler]

What do you mean? I don’t have the option to do slow motion on my phone. Typically the rider rises with outside front leg.

[eightpondfarm]

on my ipad and also laptop, when i view the video i can go to the little wheelie thingy (“settings”) and choose a replay speed. By choosing .25 it’s going 1/4 the normal speed and it’s easy to see everytime a post goes off. In that video there are quite a few. edit: another thing i usually do when interviewing a new horse prospect from a video is control the motion frame by frame. Haven’t done that with any of these horseback videos on this thread, but it can be done for even closer scrutiny.

[Scribbler]

I don’t think I have that feature

It’s true that slow motion video and stop frame before that can really change how we see things biomechanically.

I wouldn’t be surprised that a rider posting big on a green horse might be subtly out of sync. There’s nothing here that’s obvious at regular speed. It would be very interesting to survey a range of good riders and see if it’s normal or not.

[SuzieQNutter]

When you rise you use the power of the horse for up and the power of gravity to come down softly.

It becomes subconscious and you don’t even think about it. Worrying about something which is slowed down to the nth degree and changing your rising is more likely to upset both the horse and rider.

As I said before you would not have a lovely tempo if something is wrong.

In cave drawings etc horses were drawn in gallop with their legs splayed. I was taught it was with slow down cameras that it was learnt that the horse’s legs are gathered.

Recently on the radio that the human eye can not see all the colours good cameras can pick up.

We are limited by the human eye. Don’t try to ride better than the human eye. You will cause a lot of unnecessary stress. This will show in your horse and you will not have a lovely tempo.

[TheDBYC]

I’m just a biomechanics/alignment nerd & not an expert. So all opinions from me should be taken with a grain of salt…

The goal of contact is to keep contact: i.e., Human & horse communicating valuable bits of information to each other via the telephone wire of the reins. I rode in two dressage clinics with a German riding master a few years ago. A few tidbits that stuck in my mind: “Vibrate your fingers on the inside rein. No half halt yet. Just vibrate your fingers.” And “Take a feel of his mouth with your inside rein.” And “Breath your inside rein.”

Imo, the hands move, but move in concert with the horse’s movement. Watching Charlotte Dujardin or Carl Hester, their hands certainly move. They move in a very kinetically elastic way that keeps the connection with the horse intact at all times. The rider ceasing to follow the movement is a cue in & of itself. To halt the (PSG level) horse I rode, you half halted to start to bring him up under you. The actual halt took nothing more from you hand aid than simply closing your fingers & ceasing to follow the motion as you sat down & back.

The biomechanically tricky part for the rider is that the following motion of your arms/hands has to come from the shoulders & back to get that effortless-looking elasticity. There’s a clip of Carl riding with Jean Belmelmans coaching him where you can really see that biomechanic at work by how his spine undulates with the movement of the horse, from piaffe to passage, and back again. The first step towards that is getting the brain wrapped around the idea that your hands are dynamically framing & balancing your body in the same way they frame the horse’s.

Felicitas von Neumann-Cosel actually just posted a video on her FB page that explains this far better than I ever could & gives tips on how to find the correct sensation in the beginning of the process. I love how she explains rider/horse biomechanics in general. I want to be her when I grow up. Never mind she’s probably only 10-15 years older than me!

[SuzieQNutter]

There are 2 trains of thought.

Ask what you want and when the horse is doing what you want. Stay quiet as a reward.

With this method I went from being 3rd in everything to winning every event I entered from One Day Events, Dressage, Showjumping and Jumping Equitation as well as my club’s gymkhana on my mongrel, completely conformationally incorrect, bought sight unseen for $100, who was only used when they had a extra man to round up cattle, who I thought was the most beautiful horse in the World, gelding.

I became a Level I instructor working for my Level II under a Level III Dressage Instructor riding Grand Prix.

I had never ridden trained horses before. I thought I had trained my last horse with my seat. I was having and giving dressage and jumping lessons in the mornings and taking out the 5 hour trail rides a day.

I could not ask a trained horse to do a trot to canter transition. Walk canter fine. Trot canter not the first time I asked.

I was told my hands are dead, my legs are dead and I was not using my seat.

They taught me to keep communication with the horse, when you stop you are abandoning the horse in the wind. My riding increased vastly with this method and I did learn to use my seat correctly, eventually, thanks to my Vinnie Girl, would was the complete opposite and price to Pepper.

[eightpondfarm]

i noticed out of sync posting on both videos i mentioned it about at normal. The first one i didn’t even bother slowing down until i got on my laptop for this one, which was as obvious to my eye as the first one was.

[Scribbler]

Can you describe what you are seeing?

[NaturallyHappy]

Great post!