Horse goes low/behind - which hand(s) to raise the head? *video downthread*

[sascha]

I’m not sure what @eightpondfarm is seeing. But, I can say that I’m seeing absolutely normal posting in both full speed and 1/4 speed. If I watch what the horse’s back is doing, the rider is 100% in sync. If I get wrapped up in watching the outside front leg I could convince myself that there is something wonky, but then I remind myself that the motion of “following” that front leg is not exactly as advertised by instructors to beginner students. We need to be starting our way back down from the peak of our post as the horse touches the ground. If we wait until the horse is pivoting its weight over that leg, we are going to get behind the motion and smack the saddle as the horse’s back is already pushing back up again.

I think we also need to remember that the initial touch of our delicate ass to the saddle does not indicate full weight on the horse’s back. That takes a moment as our butt muscles/flab compress. The reverse is also true, our initial lightening of our seat happens before it is visible that we are indeed rising.

Just what I am seeing, my thoughts. I’d also like to know what EPF is seeing because my eyeballs are rusty.

[TheDBYC]

@endlessclimb, I don’t thiiiiiiink your posting rhythm is off, but maybe you’re working harder than you need to? Haven’t had a chance to watch the 1st video. In the video where you’re riding in the dressage saddle, I wonder if shortening your stirrups 1 or 2 holes would help? It looks like they’re a little too long for you to allow you to let your weight to fall in a line from shoulder to hip to the ball of the foot. Do you feel like you’re having to reach for the stirrups with your toes? That’s what I think i’m seeing as your toes look slightly lower than the ball of your foot & heel and you’re having to use bigger upper body movement to compensate.

I’m wondering if that’s actually what eightpondsfarm is seeing? It isn’t an off-rhythm so much as it is a split second lag from her making a micro-adjustment to take out the slack between her foot & the stirrup. Much like how if you’re using a tow chain to pull something you have to gently edge it to the point of tension before actually starting to pull or run the risk of damaging the load by using too much force to start it. Whereas if she could keep the weight in her stirrups unchanged between rising & sitting, she could rise without needing that tiny explosive movement each time.

[eightpondfarm]

What i’m seeing is an irregular synchronicity of the motion of rider in conjunction to the horse’s leg movement. In that second video (How to start a young horse - part13)) i see that sometimes rear comes down in a multitude of different timings to the leg…sometimes before / sometimes after / sometimes right as outside leg is loaded. I see an entire lap of the post too… Post is just ‘off’. If there was consistency i probably wouldn’t have noticed, or wouldn’t have bothered to mention even if i did.

Not going to OP’s video because why pick on her when there is a pro to look at instead LOL.

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

i see that sometimes rear comes down in a multitude of different timings to the leg

Ah, ok, I see what you’re seeing and automatically attributed it to minor losses of balance in the horse and a rider that gets ‘hit’ by them for less than one stride. Totally normal when riding a youngster. For me, I’d rather see that than a rider that is so stuck in metronome rhythm that instead of an occasional, tiny oops they end up influencing the horse too much with the seat for the horse’s development and training level and end up with a horse that braces to force itself into the overly rigid parameters the rider is setting.

[EventingMaff]

Just wanted to say thank you for this thread. With a 5 year old mare at a similar stage - it’s been so helpful!

[endlessclimb]

The stirrup length was one hole longer than I usually ride. A friend is riding my old horse periodically, and is just a titch taller than I am (not saying much, I’m 5’1" lol). I didn’t notice it until a couple days ago. Good catch!

@eightpondfarm posting is supposed to feel “easy.” Your body is not working to keep some sort of rhythm, the horse’s back does it for you. If you’re trying to influence the rhythm/collect/extend, that’s different, but if you’re happy with what you’re riding it should not take a tremendous amount of thought. As someone else noted, it’s not actually in rhythm with the front leg, it’s in rhythm with what the back is doing. You start a beginner on the front leg because it gets them “close” and gives them a visual marker. I bet if you took a video of yourself riding, you would feel something similar. Remember, you’re not influencing the front leg - you’re freeing up the inside hind to step further under.

[Libby2563]

@Jackie_Cochran

One thing I have noticed with some experienced riders (hunt seat and dressage) is that they do not open their elbows when rising while posting. These riders had NO IDEA that their elbows were not opening until I gently, diplomatically and quietly pointed it out to them, and I got some resistance at first since these riders did not want to look like beginners again.

I solved my problem with this by concentrating opening/straightening my elbows as much as I opened my KNEES while rising in my posts. So when I rise my knees become straighter for a moment, and when I sit back down my knee angle closes and I match this with my elbows.

I taught up-down lessons for a little while in college and this was something I liked to work on with the intermediate-ish kids. I used to tell them to think about their elbows as a hinge that needed to open and close with their posting. At first you may even need to think about pushing your hands down a little bit when you rise (or holding a strap), to get the idea of the opening/closing motion. The hinge visual was always pretty effective! I agree that when there’s unwanted motion in the hands the issue is usually stiff elbows or shoulders.

[endlessclimb]

I have been trying to visualize pushing my hands down as I rise, but haven’t had time to take video yet to show if it’s helping or not. I should be able to take some new video in a few days I hope.

[EventingMaff]

THank you for sharing this video - I watched several of her videos in this series but this one on ‘exploring the contact’ in particular was so helpful! Had one of the best rides I’ve had in ages with my 5 year old mare last night as I went into it with the “don’t create contact, just let her explore contact” mentality. And lo-and-behold…she explored and decided she liked to create contact with me!

SUch a light bulb moment for me (and I hope her!)!!

[Jealoushe]

I found if you hold your hand in the correct position it automatically makes your elbows open and close and your hand hand follow better.

Take a dressage whip and place it in your hand so the handle goes parallel to the ground and the whip then comes up and is parallel under your arm or even the tail of the whip can be reaching up to the sky or your armpit.

Riding just once like this gave me the feel I need, and I can replicate that in my mind when I ride now as a reminder. I’ve always had the WORST hands and arms ever. This was a bit of a game changer for me.

[endlessclimb]

I’ve done some stuff messing around with holding a whip, but never this. I’m excited to give it a try!

Dod you explain the suppling aid you referenced, and I missed it? Apologies if so!

[Jealoushe]

Yes let me know how it feels! I didn’t, I’ll send you a pm because it’s a long explanation but also really helpful I’ve found.

[Jealoushe]

I also saw Mark Todd was schooling with his whip in this exact method so I felt confident the clinician I rode with who showed me must know her stuff lol

[wanderinglemon]

Can you describe the whip position in more detail? I want to try this but feel like I’m not picturing it the right way.

[SuzieQNutter]

@endlessclimb

I’ve done some stuff messing around with holding a whip, but never this. I’m excited to give it a try!

Dod you explain the suppling aid you referenced, and I missed it? Apologies if so!

You can quote by highlighting what you want to quote and clicking on the quote bubble that appears.

Or you can quote by clicking the reply arrow under the post and then the quote bubble up on the left hand side above where you are typing.

Then we know who you are asking these questions to.

[endlessclimb]

I am clicking reply, which if it’s immediately after the person’s post, does not include who you are replying to.

I have mentioned this and how confusing it is to the Mods, but I think they currently have bigger fish to fry.

[Jealoushe]

Tried a photo for you, I can take one tonight with an actual whip lol

[SuzieQNutter]

@endlessclimb

I am clicking reply, which if it’s immediately after the person’s post, does not include who you are replying to.

I have mentioned this and how confusing it is to the Mods, but I think they currently have bigger fish to fry.

You just add clicking on the speech bubble at the top left of the reply window after doing that.

I missed the post about the whip and have seen it and the photos now. I don’t think I will be able to ride today. We have had quite a bit of rain. The arena is too wet.

It was the parallel to the ground that was confusing. When you put the whip across the two hands and under the thumbs it is parallel to the ground.

It can’t be parallel to the ground and end up under the armpits!

[Jealoushe]

Yes it can, you’re thinking across the pommel and withers say facing north south but I’m saying parallel to the ground but against your side like east west (or whatever direction you’re in).

Depending on your arm length and whip etc you might need to angle it up to the armpits lol

[SuzieQNutter]

@Jealoushe

Yes it can, you’re thinking across the pommel and withers say facing north south but I’m saying parallel to the ground but against your side like east west (or whatever direction you’re in).

Depending on your arm length and whip etc you might need to angle it up to the armpits lol

Yes especially if you are keeping your wrists in a straight line with the bit and the horse’s head is lower.