Horse is a pain puzzle: does this even count as sound?

[alteredcarbon]

@Simkie

@alteredcarbon

It would be an easier call if I had a neuro diagnosis.

What do you mean? You have a neuro diagnosis in “extensive kissing spine with remodeling/degradation of the processes.”

I mean an actual diagnosis of neurological issues from a vet. So far, my suspicion that he’s not fully aware of his feet specifically (he trips. A lot.) has been brushed off or pushed aside in favor of ulcers or the suspensory or hocks or whatever else we have found. I asked if the back would contribute to any of this and was told that basically it COULD be asymptomatic and just incidental to the rest of him. I don’t know, I just feel the need to have a vet at least validate my suspicions or see what I’m seeing.

ETA maybe I’m just bad at expressing my concerns to my vets. I see it, but I’m fighting tooth and nail to get someone to do more than glance at him. Luckily, I think this new vet may give me the time of day. They brought up wanting to image his neck when they were out here for a chiro appointment.

[Angela_Freda]

@alteredcarbon

Horse is a gelding, early teens. Known issues include a past healed suspensory injury, extensive kissing spine with remodeling/degradation of the processes,

This, above, is not…

@alteredcarbon

I mean an actual diagnosis of neurological issues from a vet.

…???

[candyappy]

@alteredcarbon

It would be… tough, right now, to put him down. At least the fallout from others would seriously be. He’s boarded, and young, and visually looks very healthy and sound. Maybe I’m looking for a diagnosis just to deflect judgement from others?

Can you haul him to your vets office and have him euthanized there? That way you don’t have to worry about what others at the barn may see or say.

He may " look" perfectly fine but what you have described and his attitude is saying how much he is hurting. You have tried so many things and it isn’t working and I believe you need to realize it won’t.

[SuzieQNutter]

@alteredcarbon

So far, my suspicion that he’s not fully aware of his feet specifically (he trips. A lot.)

This is not normal for a horse and it means do not walk beside or in front of him when leading. One day he may fall on you.

[alteredcarbon]

@Angela_Freda

@alteredcarbon

Horse is a gelding, early teens. Known issues include a past healed suspensory injury, extensive kissing spine with remodeling/degradation of the processes ,

This, above, is not…

@alteredcarbon

I mean an actual diagnosis of neurological issues from a vet.

…???

I mean I have not had a vet confirm that the kissing spines = neurological. Or that the horse is even neurological. I had to fight to get one vet to even do a neuro exam, they thought I was being paranoid, and just said “I see why you were concerned now” but I never got any further information on what that means. So I assumed that the two are not necessarily related.

Perhaps I have not been asking the vets the right questions? Maybe they are assuming I know more than I do? I have been under the impression that kissing spines CAN be related to neuro issues, but that a kissing spine diagnosis of any grade does not necessarily mean the horse is neurologically impaired and that the neuro would be a separate diagnosis.

[Simkie]

@alteredcarbon

I mean I have not had a vet confirm that the kissing spines = neurological.

I say this gently, as these are such hard times with an animal we love but…

To what end?

You have a horse with a painful neurological condition

Who is demonstrating a severe shift in behavior

And showing very apparent signs that he’s in pain

And you are seeing textbook neurological symptoms that can be explained by the progressive degenerative neurological process you know he has

And you have been as yet unable to treat his pain.

I really encourage you to sit down and consider what a best case scenario looks like for this horse. What do you want his life to look like? In your shoes, I’d want to see his personality go back to base line, for his aggression to disappear, and for his painful behaviors to go away.

How likely do you think it is that those things can happen? You’ve been trying to improve these things for how long? YEARS? With no or little change?

Getting another diagnosis to add to his laundry list of problems doesn’t change that he’s in pain now, and that you’ve been unable to address that in any meaningful way.

If you just really need to hear “yes, he’s really abnormal neurologically” before being able to consider euthanasia, by all means, schedule that appointment. But really think about what happens after that if a) he’s really neuro or b) if the vet says he’s not.

Neither of those things changes that this guy has had a significant behavioral shift because he’s in unrelenting chronic pain.

And again, I’m sorry. I know how terribly hard this is.

[alteredcarbon]

I’m sure you can imagine how frustrating it is to lay all this out to a vet (or two!) and have them look at you sideways and go “let’s scope for ulcers” again. And not just cow vet or small town vet either.

I feel like I know that he’s weird, but a confirmed neuro diagnosis or SOMETHING concrete would help me sleep at night knowing I’ve done all I can for him.

[IPEsq]

Sometimes the question is, if I do XYZ or know ABC, would the outcome change? I do think you can get some of the answers you are looking for with a farm call. And some of those things (like ulcers) are not a death sentence. But it might suggest also that perhaps horse needs a change of management, including change of location. Some things might not be treatable and/or will require a haul to a clinic for the better chance at answers (different equipment, access to certain specialists). Potentially, you can’t find anything. It is maybe EDM or a progression of neuro pain or just overall pain that has become unmanageable.

You have to consider, what are you willing to do or capable of doing? Would you haul him, would you fast and scope him, would you do injections, change his management including herd or location, how much money would you put towards an attempt to get him pasture sound again? If the answers to these things, or some of them, are achievable, maybe do them or give it a one time shot. Otherwise, you just have to look at the horse in front of you. To answer your initial question, no, the horse does not seem “sound” for retirement in his current state.

[Angela_Freda]

@alteredcarbon

I have been under the impression that kissing spines CAN be related to neuro issues, but that a kissing spine diagnosis of any grade does not necessarily mean the horse is neurologically impaired and that the neuro would be a separate diagnosis.

Why does it have to be diagnosed as neuro to be bad enough?
In other words, why is KS not bad enough for you to believe he’s in likely intractable pain?

You’ve been asking questions but are you reading other threads in this forum about similar situations?
Getting brushed off by vets happens.
They miss things. Big things.
Sometimes ya gotta kiss a few frogs before they see what you’re talking about and get interested, creative, thoughtful and get with it.

I wish I could remember the one recently… She’d been through hell and back and to Texas a&m iirc, and FINALLY got connected with the insightful and interested vet who totally got it.
.

[Simkie]

@alteredcarbon

I feel like I know that he’s weird, but a confirmed neuro diagnosis or SOMETHING concrete would help me sleep at night knowing I’ve done all I can for him.

I know it can be tough to step back and have some distance when there’s been a slow progression of symptoms.

But you have several very concrete diagnoses of things that are pain causing and quality of life impacting, and you’ve provided many examples of how he’s showing that to you.

I really hope you’re able to get him on a solid regimen for pain while you work through this decision. Continuing without when he’s clearly hurting so much is just so unfair to him. Perhaps it would help you to understand how bad it is, if you’re able to get him some relief.

[alteredcarbon]

I can, and have, scoped on a farm call. Just not recently.

I guess I wonder why my vets haven’t brought any of this up? Are they assuming I won’t take it well? I’ve tried to ask the right questions to get an honest assessment, but maybe I come off as in denial or something.

Horse has burned through his insurance to where almost nothing is covered and I dropped it. So there is a budget for what I can do. I could bring him home, but he is boarded because he was doing better there and had a med/rehab schedule I couldn’t handle with my job. Now he’s just on retirement board, and I’d have to get creative to fit him in the herd at home. Boss mare won’t take kindly to being dethroned, I think.

[alteredcarbon]

@Simkie

I know it can be tough to step back and have some distance when there’s been a slow progression of symptoms.

But you have several very concrete diagnoses of things that are pain causing and quality of life impacting, and you’ve provided many examples of how he’s showing that to you.

I guess the reason I came on here is exactly this - why haven’t I gotten this type of feedback from any of my vets? I’ve used 4 separate practices recently and none have given me any indication that he’s in pain. I think he is, but I get the distinct impression from all but one (who I wasn’t there for the appointment and can’t tell) that I’m missing the obvious and just being your typical overanxious amateur owner.

[Simkie]

Did you ask?

Did you lay all this out, like you have here?

Vets are veeeeery often reluctant to say anything negative, or bring up euthanasia, unless the owner very specifically indicates they’re ready to hear it.

I would have a very frank conversation with whichever vet you have the best report with. Something like this:

I’m very concerned about Dobbin’s behavioral changes over the past several years. He’s becoming more aggressive with people and his herd mates. He is less engaged and often doesn’t leave the barn to go graze. We’ve seen that it’s challenging to keep him ulcer free despite ideal living conditions. I’m also concerned because I’m seeing more symptoms of something I would consider neurological deficit, like frequent tripping, and worry what this means given his very serious diagnosis of kissing spine at multiple levels. I’ve also not made any progress in getting him more comfortable over his back, or in getting his hind feet balanced. I am very seriously considering what sort of quality of life he has, and worry that it’s poor. Can we discuss what his life looks like, and if it’s fair to him to continue down this path?

That’s the conversation.

[fanfayre]

@alteredcarbon
You have my deepest sympathies - I am going through this also, right now right along with you; I know exactly how you’re feeling
If you ever want to chat…

[alteredcarbon]

Yes I did ask. With xrays and videos in hand. Multiple times. I have a bit of a baby face plus a very healthy looking horse, so I feel like several vets have brushed me off as the woo-woo worrying young owner who is scared of her spoiled brat gelding.

Thank you for the script though, cause that is super helpful. I needed help organizing my thoughts in a way that may get my point across better, so I’ll probably use some of your words if that’s okay. We will do the neck xrays, talk about options, and I will continue the ulcer treatment and pain killers in the meantime (I started him on Tylenol since I’m out of bute).

He’s made some improvements but backslid in other areas. Since this vet is the one that brought up neck issues without me asking, I’ll be talking to them I think.

[Libby2563]

@alteredcarbon

I could bring him home, but he is boarded because he was doing better there and had a med/rehab schedule I couldn’t handle with my job. Now he’s just on retirement board, and I’d have to get creative to fit him in the herd at home.

I’m glad you have a plan to talk to another vet! Your concerns sound really legitimate to me, and if all is as you describe I would be strongly considering euthanasia. If you’re worried about judgment/blowback at the boarding barn, having your own place is the perfect solution. Assuming he can ship there safely and you have a good relationship with your home vet, take him home “for retirement.” Beyond that it’s nobody’s business.

Or if you’re anywhere near New Bolton, I can almost guarantee you they will deem your horse neurological. (That’s not a dig. They just see a lot of it and are more finely tuned than even the average sports med vet to gait abnormalities.)

[atr]

About the fact that he’s continuously getting ulcers my question would be why? It’s probably because he’s in pain and stressed because of that. So treating them again is just slapping on another short term bandaid.

I’m sorry. I have a lameish retiree who I would have PTS if he were in my backyard, TBH, but find it hard to do as he is at a retirement barn and he’s in better shape than many of the other lovingly cared-for old crocks there.

[fanfayre]

But, is your guy ‘angry and reactive’?
That, I think, is the OP’s tipping point, and I know it is in my case.

[Equestrianette]

@alteredcarbon

I’m sure you can imagine how frustrating it is to lay all this out to a vet (or two!) and have them look at you sideways and go “let’s scope for ulcers” again. And not just cow vet or small town vet either.

I feel like I know that he’s weird, but a confirmed neuro diagnosis or SOMETHING concrete would help me sleep at night knowing I’ve done all I can for him.

Why do I feel like we went to the same vet
I work in human healthcare which has its own issues… but for the most part in all my experiences, if the person working with me didn’t know something they admit it and will make an appropriate referral to someone that does. I’ve yet to experience this with any vet. The commitment to one diagnosis while completely disregarding anything else. I empathize with you.

[atr]

No he’s not. If he were, that would be a tipping point for me too (and is in fact why I have put a horse down in the past. And I shouldn’t have waited as long as I did, so I get it. It sucks.)