Thank you for sharing your experience.
Actually, today I got some news that essentially has put a date on her last day, so it’s cutting very close to the bone right now
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A vet at a very prominent clinic told me the same thing after a protracting battle with ulcers. If you make the environmental and lifestyle changes but they keep coming back, there’s often a deep pain issue. Back, pelvic, etc types can be hard to pinpoint compared to a leg that you can flex.
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I think you are thinking of Equestrianette, who has commented on this thread.
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I would be honored if you used my words, or the jist, or just the general formula 
I’ve had a disheartening number of these conversations with vets, and know how sad and hard it is. I really hope you get some clarity and direction.
I’d also really ask about getting him on a very robust dose of gabapentin for nerve pain. It can be very effective, and just isn’t that expensive–look through the strength options at GoodRX to dial in the best balance of # of pills vs $$. Last time I went through this, the 300mg strength made the most sense.
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Are you in an area where EPM and/or Lyme are possible concerns? Apologies if I missed it elsewhere in the thread, but if you haven’t tested for those, that’d be pretty high on my list. The Cerebral Spinal fluid test for EPM is gold standard, but positive titer + clinical signs/symptoms (like tripping and rapid/substantial behavior deterioration) can be another means of diagnosis.
I ask because I wrestled with a fairly similar situation with my gelding in 2020. Heaves, encroaching sidebone, core lesion of the LF DDFT. I stall rested and rehabbed and threw everything but the kitchen sink at him for months. It felt like it all came crashing down in the span of a few days. Rapid weight loss, sudden aggression, severe lethargy. We did a basic neuro exam (concerning) and ran blood for an epm titer. The exposure values were off the charts positive.
I told myself the EPM titer would be my line in the sand. When that came back raging high, coupled with the deterioration and multiple other compounding issues… I knew our time was up.
That might be a minimally invasive way for you to get something concrete that could explain the neuro symptoms. It also gives you something to stand behind if anyone gives you a hard time. I sincerely hope it doesn’t come to that, but people can be cruel and I’ve watched friends struggle with similar circumstances.
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Gapapentin is a great medication. Agree with trying this as it’s also not hard in the stomach.
Hugs, OP.
I don’t agree with the above post that vets somehow get tunnel vision and get set on one diagnosis. This can and does happen sometimes- because we are human. It happens in many facets of work- police work, medicine, pilots, etc. because we are humans. It’s certainly wonderful to find alternatives and keep searching if you feel something isn’t right but it’s also part of the human condition. I’ve been there too, most of us have. Live, learn, move forward with the journey, but don’t assume every vet will approach things the same. Most may have you in the right track but are possibly missing the big picture." Can’t see the forest through the trees". Some see better than others.
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The couple of clinics I’ve been to here in central Florida, as well as one excellent traveling vet, all go pretty quickly to neuro testing if there are tripping signs, behavior changes, weird NQR but not really lame, changes in ability to do its job. Then tracking down the reason for neuro symptoms.
Maybe I’ve been lucky with vets, if not so lucky with a couple horses? I dont know, but I guess I’m surprised at the number of vets some of posters have to wade through to get answers. Especially the Texas person, going to places that should be quality!
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I went round and round with vets when my 23 yo ottb, I’d had since he was 6, suddenly lost weight, went lame, his fetlocks dropped, etc… and the suggestion was Lyme [ruled out] and then ulcers.
I was SO fortunate to speak to a vet who finally listened to the WHOLE story and was intrigued, truly curious and ot jumping to a diagnosis, and helped me get him on a better road, though retired.
It can be so frustrating.
But it helps if you know your horse, research the heck out of things, and keep advocating.
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I think a lot has to do with what they see most often in their practice. Probably from the prevalence of EPM in Florida, vets there are more sensitive to neuro issues. Same for other areas for Lyme. New Bolton for perhaps the strange neuro cases because they get referrals a lot. Based on their experiences, such things are a lot less rare than they might be to a vet somewhere else.
Additionally, maybe a vet would be more tuned in to behavior or personality problems where it is affecting performance and less concerned with a retiree. It’s not totally uncommon for a retired horse to develop some bratty behaviors if they are generally handled a lot less than before. But you know the difference with your horse between pushy and total personality change. Some vets may also be less inclined to recommend the full spectrum of diagnostics on a retired horse. Or be the first one to bring up something like euthanasia where the horse is eating, ambulatory, etc.
Scheduling a longer appointment to have time for potential diagnostics and time to talk through your worries and frustrations with a vet who doesn’t treat you like an idiot or a kid or whatever is a good place to start. I use the vets I do currently because even when we suspect there is a “thing” that we can’t find, they know that if I call them with a concern, it’s probably not nothing. Or is at least worth an exam or xray or something to confirm the issue is minor (because how many times have I asked, can you just do X to give me piece of mind, and then it’s, well…crap, don’t you just hate being right?…sigh).
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Yes. Tested for Lyme, have been blown off when wanting to titer for EPM. This new vet has treated a previous boarder’s horse based on a titer and symptoms (granted that horse was ataxic and falling over), so maybe they will have some insight.
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Been there. I’m not a vet or anything, but I do know my horses. Unfortunately I’ve been right more often than not, though I’m always thrilled to be proven wrong and that there’s nothing there.
Hopefully I’ll get at least a prescription and a good conversation about what I see out of this appointment.
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I was thinking of TXKing99.
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I feel awful for you. Your horse does have confirmed, multiple, concrete painful conditions. Why do you need a neuro one? You are a great horse owner; you have tried incredibly hard to help your horse. Sadly, sometimes that is not enough.
I am so incredibly sorry you are living this. He is trying to tell you, the only way he can, that he is not ok.
??? No more back, neck, poll pain?
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I recently euthanized a young horse (7) who had multiple issues. For 4 years I was able to keep him comfortable enough. Starting last fall, be began not wanting to trot in turnout - he got mad when his pasture buddy would trot off, he became more nervous and on cold days he became angry. He was a very sweet boy so it was soul crushing to see him so unhappy. He didn’t tolerate pain meds, and nexium did not work for him.
My friend had another young gelding with KS. He was probably drugged when she bought him (age 5) because he was being used for beginners at camp. During her second or third ride, he began bucking. Injections/rehab did not help him. She retired him. He went downhill within a couple of years and he had recurring ulcers from the pain. As soon as he was off the gastrogard the ulcers came right back. He became dangerous to handle and she was forced to PTS before he hurt someone.
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I guess to be clear: the impression I have gotten is that he’s fine to be retired, but painful when ridden. Which, yeah, doesn’t really line up with the back dropping out when you run your hands down his back thing. Or the tightness, or the “holy crap” from the bodyworker. He’s better with consistent bodywork and time in the BOT (like… a ton better), but I feel like it’s a razors edge. None of the vets have given me the impression that he’s not a candidate for pasture retirement? Or that he’s not fine out there? That’s what I mean.
Yes he has all these issues, but they’ve crept up. And some are healed, some are in progress and COULD be blamed on other factors, some I think are worse than the vets have been willing to tell me. Some could benefit from work, while others wouldn’t.
On this note, can TBs get PSSM? Or MFM I guess? Anyone know about that? The research I’ve done has pointed to some of that. Not that it would fix him if that’s a factor, but it might be a reason he seems to have no tolerance for things.
Sigh. Two weeks of ulcer meds (again. And of course he won’t touch the Tylenol) and I think??? He’s improving? The stall reactivity is still there. But his demeanor is better. Or maybe I’m projecting.
Vet day can’t get here fast enough.
It takes a vet with a lot of guts to make the suggestion. The average owner is not prepared to make a quality of life call and I think most vets are afraid of the blowback or sheer uncomfortableness of the discussion. Additionally, they may think that you would be okay with it but worry that nosey Nelly will go run around telling everyone “Vet B killed a perfectly good horse”. Word of mouth is powerful and stories follow vets when embellished or half told by people who have no business being involved.
Also, a vet sees your horse for maybe a hour per visit so over a couple of visit maybe a full day’s worth of observation in a controlled setting. They don’t have a benchmark for the deterioration of personality, grouchiness, loss of quality of life, etc.
If you hit a point where you think it is time, it is okay to be the one to say it and say it as a statement. If there is resistance, you can offer to take the horse to a clinic setting or private property. If your vet declines, I’d ask for a recommendation of an alternative vet. If you hit that point you have to be the bold advocate and be at peace with the decision.
You don’t owe anyone in your life an explanation who will not be empathetic. Even if the people in your life do not understand, please know that you have an online community who gets it and has a deep empathy for the courage that a hard decision like this requires.
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Yes, why not?
A friend of mine has a TB with PSSM2, so, yes.
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alteredcarbon I just retired a 11 yr old horse due to cervical arthritis, spinal compression, nerve root issues. All of his problems came on subtly, no material behavior change, just periodic tripping, and “i dont really want to do that lead change” or that bend. Occasionally off on 1 leg, but again, subtle and not always the same. Never naughty.
Anyway, mine has inflammation, but seems and acts pretty happy to be doing nothing. Retirement for yours might be worth a try, maybe a little bute/equioxx on board? If he is comfortable or happy you will know. If not you can then go the other route.
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He’s retired, and has been for a long while.
I’m sorry about your horse. I’m strangely hoping we find something on X-ray in his neck, but if not I’m hoping to at least have some idea of how to make him more comfortable or call it.
Part of the issue is he’s handled daily and groomed/hand walked often like all the others, but he really needs a job mentally. A forward, calorie burning, brain tiring job. His body just currently doesn’t want to do that, not without some help.
I haven’t tried back injections or shockwave, but I have done robaxin and bodywork. I just don’t know if I can do $900 injections twice a year or whatever, plus the $400 shoes, plus the $400/month bodywork and chiro, plus the Adequan and supplements and worry for a retired horse. Especially if he’s not happy in retirement.
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