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Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

Horse Care
#201

[QUOTE=Lookout;3046205]
Well the OP was. Maybe you should check the thread title.[/QUOTE]

I am not in this for a fight but seriously you are being so obnoxious. I was talking to you and trying to HELP you and all you do is throw that in my face. Very professional. I am so glad you’re interested in improving the state of alternative medicine. I however am not anymore after seeing how you guys respond.

And yes, I am in the veterinary medical profession so that speaks volumes IMO. I was at one point willing to work with most of you but now I am jaded.

Congratulations.

I am alos trying to figure out how you guys get that vets have no training in anything but being money grubbing assholes. Thats not what they are teaching me right now I will tell you that.

#202

And of course all the websites and glossy print ads that are hawking “miracle cures” are doing so STRICTLY out of a keen, sincere humanitarian desire to promulgate their secret knowledge for the benefit of mankind. For $19.99 a crack. :lol:

Everyone who has a job more or less does that job because it pays the bills. That would, I daresay, include farriers and massage therapists as well as vets, doctors and even salesmen of miracle potions and cures. And LED manufacturers. Why this is something shameful is beyond me. You want my paycheck? Go to school for as long as I did, learn everything I’ve learned, take the risks I take with lives in the balance, work the hours I work and carry my pager. Hell, I’ll GIVE you my pager. GLADLY. :smiley: But you’d better damn well have the credentials, because I sure as hell am not putting my patients in the hands of someone who isn’t qualified. By the same token, I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert in farriery, nor massage, nor herbal therapy and I don’t expect to be paid for that expertise which I don’t have. But if I need someone like that, I want to hire an EXPERT. Someone with CREDENTIALS. Who would I ask for such a reference if I needed it? Probably MY VET. So go ahead and make those enemies. My vet probably won’t be recommending any of you all. :lol: Then go see if you can cure the large, bleeding bullet holes in your feet.

But if you want to go on about miracle cures that are well-kept secrets, LEDs that haven’t enough power to disturb a second layer of cells that can miraculously cure bone fractures, and herbal teas that cure cancer and STILL want to be taken seriously, you’ve got a lot more than a legislative problem on your hands. There are just enough uneducated, uncritical rubes out there who might actually swallow enough of that crap to keep the mythology alive, but as the old furniture commercial says: “an educated consumer is the best customer”. Maybe the fringes of alternative therapy are afraid to step up and show their data, their proof, their arguments for superiority because they wouldn’t withstand the scrutiny? Here’s another little platitude: “sunlight is the best disinfectant”.

So come on out of the dark. Show us your DATA that teas and lights and crystals and magnets WORK. Let’s see! The world is (literally in some cases) DYING to know what is going to be the new miracle. Wait, you say you HAVE no proof? No data? OH, I see. And I suppose that is the result of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-medical conspiracy, too, right? RIIIIIIGHT.

#203

[QUOTE=deltawave;3046341]

Everyone who has a job more or less does that job because it pays the bills. That would, I daresay, include farriers and massage therapists as well as vets, doctors and even salesmen of miracle potions and cures. And LED manufacturers. Why this is something shameful is beyond me. You want my paycheck? Go to school for as long as I did, learn everything I’ve learned, take the risks I take with lives in the balance, work the hours I work and carry my pager. Hell, I’ll GIVE you my pager. GLADLY. :smiley: But you’d better damn well have the credentials, because I sure as hell am not putting my patients in the hands of someone who isn’t qualified. By the same token, I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert in farriery, nor massage, nor herbal therapy and I don’t expect to be paid for that expertise which I don’t have. But if I need someone like that, I want to hire an EXPERT. Someone with CREDENTIALS. Who would I ask for such a reference if I needed it? Probably MY VET. So go ahead and make those enemies. My vet probably won’t be recommending any of you all. :lol: Then go see if you can cure the large, bleeding bullet holes in your feet.[/QUOTE]

On this we agree

Let’s take Massage Therapy for example being as that’s what Massage Lady does. From what I’ve seen of it at best it can be beneficial. At worst it can do nothing. In other words it’s harmless. Can the same be said for vet medicine where malpractice can cause serious damage up to and including death? For this reason vet medicine requires much more training and education followed by licensing. I’d have no problem with licensing for alternative practitioners also but see no reason to run them out of business. In fact I think licensing would minimize the charlatans and frauds from getting involved with it.

As far as AMA human and vet medicine goes didn’t we argue this before?:slight_smile:
George

#204

Harmless is nice. There are times when even massage can be somewhat worse than
“harmless”, though. No doubt anyone with training and expertise in the field knows these contraindications. However, if the practitioner misuses their position of authority and starts recommending things outside their actual area of qualification, that may or may not be “harmless”. Not treating something can cause harm. Treating something with a worthless remedy can be harmful if that treatment is chosen in lieu of something beneficial. OF COURSE it is the owner’s or patient’s right and prerogative to CHOOSE, but people often turn to EXPERTS to help them choose wisely. If you are an expert, great. But there is a difference between being expert in one’s field and a self-styled or self-appointed “expert” in a field where there IS no standard of care, no known indications, no known accreditation and no accountability. Like shooting LEDs into bones. Or curing cancer with tea. Again, you want to do it to your own animals or family members? FINE. But don’t abuse the position of authority in your field of expertise by interjecting personal opinion and untested experience disguised as factual knowledge and expert recommendations. That is what we would call “malpractice”.

#205

How can folks think there is some huge conspiracy? Do you all spend your days watching the Zapruder Film? Yes, companies and individuals deserve to make money and they will do what it takes. Folks with alternatives have the same right. The folks expounding the conspiracy against alternative therapy continue to imply some back room, black ops, entity that is against them.

Working in medical research, with Vets, MDs, pharmaceuticals, etc. I have yet to see any such nefarious efforts. I have testified both for and against the big companies and nobody has shut me down. I haven’t seen men in black hiding in the bushes. The story of Dr. Brusch is laughable.

As a matter of fact in 2006 in the Journal of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine, the article:

Trial of Essiac to ascertain its effect in women with breast cancer (TEA-BC).

Zick SM, Sen A, Feng Y, Green J, Olatunde S, Boon H.
Integrative Medicine, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1555,

found, and I quote, “Essiac does not appear to improve HR-QOL (Health Related Quality of Life) or mood states. Future studies are needed to determine whether other clinical outcomes, such as cancer reoccurrence, are affected by Essiac.”

Or in the Canadian journal of Anticancer Research in 2006, in the article,

An in vivo analysis of the herbal compound essiac.

Leonard BJ, Kennedy DA, Cheng FC, Chang KK, Seely D, Mills E.
Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada.

They conclude: “Essiac, administered in established in vivo experimental models, did not significantly demonstrate its purported physiological modifying effects.”

Yeah, Dr. Brusch is hiding. Because the real data is showing him to be wrong.

Reed

#206

[QUOTE=deltawave;3046450]
Harmless is nice. There are times when even massage can be somewhat worse than
“harmless”, though. No doubt anyone with training and expertise in the field knows these contraindications. However, if the practitioner misuses their position of authority and starts recommending things outside their actual area of qualification, that may or may not be “harmless”. Not treating something can cause harm. Treating something with a worthless remedy can be harmful if that treatment is chosen in lieu of something beneficial. OF COURSE it is the owner’s or patient’s right and prerogative to CHOOSE, but people often turn to EXPERTS to help them choose wisely. If you are an expert, great. But there is a difference between being expert in one’s field and a self-styled or self-appointed “expert” in a field where there IS no standard of care, no known indications, no known accreditation and no accountability. Like shooting LEDs into bones. Or curing cancer with tea. Again, you want to do it to your own animals or family members? FINE. But don’t abuse the position of authority in your field of expertise by interjecting personal opinion and untested experience disguised as factual knowledge and expert recommendations. That is what we would call “malpractice”.[/QUOTE]
Ok, fair enough.
Let me ask you this then. If drinking a certain tea thats supposed to cure cancer was not to work is this no different than expensive chemo which overwhelming majority of the time does no good either? I’m not defending those who peddle snake oil here but how in the world did apparently senseless treatments of various types gain legitimacy?

And for the vets out there, is there any good reason why in the world some of you are still pinfiring? There was a study done by UC Davis? a few years back that found the practice to be very deleterious yet it’s still being done. Why?
George

#207

Can’t speak for those doing it, as I consider it an abomination.

#208

Read the history of the AMA I think you’ll find the buck stops with I G Farben of German gas chamber fame. It’s all matter of public record.

As to Zapruder well… if you believe one bullet fired out of a trashy old rifle with a misaligned scope down through a tree at a moving target can make 2 right angle turns then a u turn and hit it’s intended target from the front eventually ending up in pristine condition on a hospital gurney, you sound like a great jury candidate.
George

#209

Read my post directly above.

Reed

#210

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3046493]
Can’t speak for those doing it, as I consider it an abomination.[/QUOTE]
Good for you Ghazzu:)

#211

It’s malpractice if you ‘diagnose and treat or prescribe’…CESMT’s know better, because they are taught not to. Also, CESMT’s (at least at my School)are taught that if the horse isn’t noticeable better after the 3rd massage, they need to look at something else…ie call the vet. This is less than 2 weeks time, so therefore is plenty of time to get the vet out. Usually it takes them that long anyway!:yes:

There are times when even massage can be somewhat worse than
“harmless”, though

When has it happened? Show me proof…I want case studies-not just anecdotes:lol:

Not treating something can cause harm. Treating something with a worthless remedy can be harmful if that treatment is chosen in lieu of something beneficial.

Of course it can…that is why if my massages aren’t helping, I refer them to their vet for their diagnosis.

I am alos trying to figure out how you guys get that vets have no training in anything but being money grubbing assholes. Thats not what they are teaching me right now I will tell you that.

If you would please read my posts…I have said that there are many great vets out there-mine being one of them. I have also only said that there is ONE VET that I would never hire again. This is not about ‘vets being bad vets’ , this is about the entire veterianary lobby-and pharmaceutical lobby-working to try to stop the people who have studied-for years-alternative ways to help the animals, and they are taking that away from the ones who are providing that service, and those who hire us-and want to continue to do so. Basically taking away our Freedom of Choice.:yes:

OF COURSE it is the owner’s or patient’s right and prerogative to CHOOSE,

NOT if this bill passes-that is the argument here.

But don’t abuse the position of authority in your field of expertise by interjecting personal opinion and untested experience disguised as factual knowledge and expert recommendations. That is what we would call “malpractice”.

You mean like my Mom’s oncologist that said with treatment she’d have at least 5 yrs, and she died the next summer?? I guess maybe I should contact a lawyer.:yes:

I’d have no problem with licensing for alternative practitioners also but see no reason to run them out of business. In fact I think licensing would minimize the charlatans and frauds from getting involved with it.

Or at the very least have a ‘grandfather clause’ put into the Bill!

And of course all the websites and glossy print ads that are hawking “miracle cures” are doing so STRICTLY out of a keen, sincere humanitarian desire to promulgate their secret knowledge for the benefit of mankind. For $19.99 a crack.

Let me put this out there for you DW…I will be buying the herbs myself in the next month-and anyone that reads this-I will send you a jar for free!! Until the first batch is gone. Yes, that’s right…I’ll put my money where my mouth is.:yes: To prove to you, that some of us are doing what we can to help-of course we have to make a living, nothing is given to us! Just as you work…do you do it for free? I doubt it. Will you give a service for FREE DW?? What about you Ghazzu?? Will you two ‘step up to the plate’ and prove you’re not in it for the money???
And yet, chemotherapy is FREE! :lol: And we know how well that works, don’t we??

Chemotherapy for common malignant tumours has historically been considered relatively expensive. An examination of costs at the Toronto-Bayview Regional Cancer Centre and Sunnybrook Medical Centre, Toronto, suggests that this perception is not accurate. The cost of chemotherapeutic agents administered on an outpatient basis over 4 to 6 months in established drug protocols ranged from $260 to $5374 (mean $2224). The total cost of outpatient administration was estimated to be $152.53 per dose, compared with $185.39 for inpatient administration of the same protocol, a difference of 22%. The difference was predominantly due to a higher allocated per-diem charge at the medical centre. The results indicate that outpatient administration reduces the overall cost of chemotherapy.

#212

I don’t need your herbs. I have a shelf full of my own.
Including a Hoxsey formula compounded by one of my teachers.
And if you want to know if I’m in it for the money, all you need to do is ask my clients.

#213

This whole arguement has been so sidetracked and become the “scientists” versus the “kooks”.

I think it should get back to the legal issues at hand. For the record I am a scientist and I don’t believe in half this crap. No-one DVM or not would be treating my horses with herbs, acupuncture, LEDs or tea. Having said that I do think that massage, shoeing and various other “work” have a proven benefit and a very long history of use, in many cases longer than traditional vet medicine. I do not think that vets with just a DVM degree are particularly well qualified to use these methods purely by virtue of being vets. I once assisted teaching an “equine science” class at UC Davis and it quite frankly scared the shit out of me: I don’t think anyone will argue with me when I say that there are many vets who do not have a strong horse background beyond the medical, much less an understanding of the demands placed on riding horses in the various disciplines. I prefer someone with that background to do things like farriery, saddle fitting, massage (very specific kinds of sports massage only) and dealing with behavioural issues. I think I should have that choice.

ETA: dentistry- I used vets for years but then my vet referred me to a dentist and he was much better at dealing with the old guys.

#214

Having read the proposed pactice act amendment, I do not believe that massage therapy, saddle fitting, and farriery will be the sole province of veterinarians.

#215

This is really funny…you use the Hoxsey formula-it’s a herbal tea also…yet, you like to throw insults at me??

FOR OVER THREE DECADES, Harry Hoxsey (1901-1974), a self taught healer, cured many cancer patients using an herbal remedy reportedly handed down by his great-grandfather. By the 1950’s, the Hoxsey Cancer Clinic in Dallas was the world’s largest private cancer center, with branches in seventeen states. Born in Illinois, the charismatic practitioner of herbal folk medicine faced unrelenting opposition and harassment from a hostile medical establishment. Nevertheless, two federal courts upheld the “therapeutic value” of Hoxsey’s internal tonic. Even his archenemies, the American Medical Association and the Food and Drug Administration, admitted that his treatment could cure some forms of cancer. A Dallas judge ruled in federal court that Hoxsey’s therapy was “comparable to surgery, radium, and x-ray” in its effectiveness, without the destructive side effects of those treatments.

If it’s essiac you’re referring to, and if you truly believe it is a cancer “cure”, then I sincerely hope you never need to put it to the test.

Still, I would think that someone who “certifies” other people in a modality might have an inlking where they stand in the jurisdiction in which they ply their profession.
Guess it’s more productive to play Chicken Little on a bb, though.

Not playing anything-I thought you were omnicient!:yes:
As I said, I do know the laws for massage therapy in my state, that is what you asked!

I am a DVM. I do acupuncture and use herbal medicine when appropriate. I have taken a veterinary chiropractic course, though I don’t feel qualified to run around adjusting horses because I’d like to spend time with a good experienced practitioner before I do that, and I haven’t had time.

I’m curious as to what course you took, and who taught it. How long was your course?

#216

Well if other people belive the things like aromatherapy, Bach flowers and light therapy perhaps they should have the choice to choose their practitioner there too? On the AVMA website that Bluey linked to those are listed as CVMAs under the advocacy section, and there is a statement that the AVMA only recognises DVMs in relation to those modalities and no other degrees or certifications.

Given the amazing harm you can do with herbs and various other supplements that seems counter-productive to me.

#217

MessageLady didn’t seem to want to share the website that her quote came from so I thought I’d do that.

Moe voodoo science.

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lhoxsey.htm
Quote:
FOR OVER THREE DECADES, Harry Hoxsey (1901-1974), a self taught healer, cured many cancer patients using an herbal remedy reportedly handed down by his great-grandfather. By the 1950’s, the Hoxsey Cancer Clinic in Dallas was the world’s largest private cancer center, with branches in seventeen states. Born in Illinois, the charismatic practitioner of herbal folk medicine faced unrelenting opposition and harassment from a hostile medical establishment. Nevertheless, two federal courts upheld the “therapeutic value” of Hoxsey’s internal tonic. Even his archenemies, the American Medical Association and the Food and Drug Administration, admitted that his treatment could cure some forms of cancer. A Dallas judge ruled in federal court that Hoxsey’s therapy was “comparable to surgery, radium, and x-ray” in its effectiveness, without the destructive side effects of those treatments.

#218

I keep it around mainly to be able to offer what I know to be a properly compounded formula of known strength to clients who wish to try it. I don’t bring it up–they do. And there is (minimal) evidence for antitumor properties of some of the constituents of that particular “tea”.

As for insults, that may be what you consider to be my disagreements with some of your more bizarre theories. I can’t help the way you interpret things.

Not playing anything-I thought you were omnicient!:yes:

Not claiming the power, but I can spell it. <G>

I’m curious as to what course you took, and who taught it. How long was your course?

I took the IVAS course in 1997-98. Somewhere over 120 hours.
Teachers included both Drs’ Limehouse, Dr. Schoen, Dr. Boldt, Dr. Tilghman, Dr. Ridgeway, Dr. Dill, Dr. May, Dr. Fleming, Dr. Schaffer, Dr. Schwartz, James Skoien (C.A., Dipl. Ac.), Dr. Steiss, Dr. Partington, Dr. Mattison, Dr. Hwang, Dr. Bierman, Dr. Caviness, Dr. Demers, Dr. Sickles, and others.

I’ve also served as a T.A. for 3 IVAS-acccredited courses and been privileged to attend classes with a number of other excellent teachers, including Dr. Marsden, Dr. Allen, Dr. Schwyzer, Dr. Boggie and many of the same folks as above.

And then a lot of CE with teachers like Dr. Thorenson, Dr. Cain, Dr. McCluggage, and Dr. Cahill.

#219

If I were indeed omniscient, I’d have realized you were asking about my chiropractic training (which we weren’t allowed to call “chiropractic” due to AVCA rules of some sort, though many of the teachers were the same.)
120+ hours.

That course included teachers such as Dr. Allen, Dr. DeStefano (DC), Dr. Dolittle, Dr. Gellman, Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Haussler (DVM and DC), Dr. Kenney, Dr. Ridgeway, and Dr. Schoen.

#220

In alternative methods, the point is not usually to diagnose. That is a job for the vets. (I know a lot of people who have been able to get a diagnosis out of a vet and it has cost them thousands of dollars.) In alternative methods, the body (in this case the horse) is put into a position to heal itselvf in a quicker and better fashion. The current trend in Europe is towards alternative methods. It is called Quantum medicine. There have been people run out of this country and information blocked from US consumers. Just watch the news casts from other countries on what is happening in this world. It varies greatly from what we are told in this country be it medicine or other areas.

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