Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

MessageLady didn’t seem to want to share the website that her quote came from so I thought I’d do that.

Moe voodoo science

Well…it’s not my tea-it’s what Ghazzu has!:yes: So, I guess Ghazzu-you are now ‘officially labeled’ under the ‘voodoo’ people too!!:lol:

I keep it around mainly to be able to offer what I know to be a properly compounded formula of known strength to clients who wish to try it. I don’t bring it up–they do. And there is (minimal) evidence for antitumor properties of some of the constituents of that particular “tea”.

So, let me get this straight…your’s is ‘properly compounded forumula’ but nobody elses is? Right.:confused: And only your’s has antitumor properties.
Where is the ‘scientific data’ for this?:winkgrin:

If I were indeed omniscient, I’d have realized you were asking about my chiropractic training (which we weren’t allowed to call “chiropractic” due to AVCA rules of some sort, though many of the teachers were the same.)
120+ hours.

So, you basically have a 3 week course to learn chiropractic on animals? I know there is a school near Chicago (forget the name), which is a 2yr school, along with a 6 mo apprenticeship program for chiro on animals. If this bill passes, these people who have been thru 2 yrs of schooling would not be able to practice their craft in Indiana…yet Vets with 3 weeks of schooling would. Do you think that is fair?

We have a now retired veterinarian here that, at one time, wanted to add chiropractic work to his practice.
He went to take some courses on that at a vet school, but never finished enough to feel, in his own words, that he was qualified to practice.

I wonder why we think that someone that is not versed in animal care, to the point a veterinarian is, can say they, with little or no certification or experience, can now become an animal chiropractor, when a veterinarian can’t just because it didn’t get enough instruction?

We have two animal “chiros” here and both are veterinarians, one only does small animals and the other does all, including horses.
She does dentistry and alternative modalities, but a “regular” vet has to refer you to her, so she knows the basics have been covered properly, before working on any animal.

There is one fellow, that has a horse trailer rigged so he can restrain a horse in there and goes all over the country here “doing horse’s teeth”.
He even uses power tools and they say he is good.

I would never use someone like that, unless my veterinarian referred me to such a person, but many here do.:eek:
I think that maybe such people are those the certification cries are called for, people that are not accountable to anyone and some of those may do more harm than good, for what an owner can possibly know.

Then wouldn’t it make sense to go after those who are doing more harm? Why throw out the baby with the bath water?? :lol: There are too many out there doing good, that animals owners have come to appreciate, and use consistently to keep their animals in shape. Why should they all be punished for the ‘few bad apples’??

I freely admit that.
A significant chunk of “mainstream” practice is not solidly evidence-based medicine, particularly in equine practice.

So, let me get this straight…your’s is ‘properly compounded forumula’ but nobody elses is? Right.:confused: And only your’s has antitumor properties.
Where is the ‘scientific data’ for this?:winkgrin:

Not my compounding–it is from a source I consider reputable though. He was one of my herbal medicine teachers. He has multiple degrees and certifications in human and veterinary medicine, and runs an herbal pharmacy.

I don’t want my clients buying stuff over the net from godknowswhere which may or may not be what it is claimed to be, and may or may not contain adulterants.

So, you basically have a 3 week course to learn chiropractic on animals? I know there is a school near Chicago (forget the name), which is a 2yr school, along with a 6 mo apprenticeship program for chiro on animals. If this bill passes, these people who have been thru 2 yrs of schooling would not be able to practice their craft in Indiana…yet Vets with 3 weeks of schooling would. Do you think that is fair?

With the caveat that one must be either a DC or a DVM to take such courses, I consider that reasonable enough. Remember, I had anatomy and physiology and neurology and orthopedics and pathology and so forth before I took the course.

I see you left out the part where I mention that I don’t adjust other people’s animals since I don’t feel I’ve had enough hours of supervised practice.

The ACVA currently feels that, given either a DC or a DVM, a minimum of 210 hours is sufficient as a starting point.(I don’t recall what the minimum was when I took the course.) Were I interested in pursuing ACVA certification, I’d probably take another complete course. If I ever get the time and money, maybe I will.

If the state of Indiana feels differently, I suggest you take it up with them, not me. I have no say, and without seeing the curriculum of the school you reference, I have no opinion on its suitability.

There are more bad apples than good…which is the point of the bill.
FWIW…why not get cracking and help to form a unified licensing of your own? Something like requiring all practitioners to complete a full course study (longer than 3 days…something probably along the lines of 1-2 years) approved by actual vets with experience and training in these fields and then with a graduation test given by same actual vets for licensing purposes? With follow up continuing education every couple years?
As a business person and “health care professional” it would seem a completely valid course of action, wouldn’t it? Why wasn’t something like this done before? This hasn’t exactly been “hidden” info for years now that there was noise about getting these practices shut down. (and NOT for money purposes…please no conspiracies)
I would assume that any professional would be thrilled at the oppportunity to learn more, become licensed, improve, etc. 1-2 years is nothing for training for licensing in a health field.
It seems everyone wants the easiest and cheapest way to continue to do what they’re doing…even though it’s in the health field. “Grandfather us in” so we don’t have to spend another dime and don’t have to learn more and don’t have to change anything…that’s what I’m ‘hearing’ on this thread.

Is the above something that would interest the alternative medicine folks?

FWIW…Ghazzu’s training in chiro or massage was probably a lot less in hours because Ghazzu was already a vet and didn’t have the beginner stuff to learn. But a massage or chiro school for a couple years is geared towards those without a doctorate in medicine/health. Apples to oranges.

[QUOTE=redleaflady;3046825]
There have been people run out of this country and information blocked from US consumers. Just watch the news casts from other countries on what is happening in this world. It varies greatly from what we are told in this country be it medicine or other areas.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I have GOT to take you to some of the international medical conferences! You’d be a hoot! Yes, the US has a WHOLE program to control ALL medicine! HA! HA! HA! HA! I had to sign a secret memo to pledge my eternal devotion to the medical establishment and George Bush. You do live in a small world. Of course my collaborators in Russia, Canada, France, China and Japan may all be hiding stuff from me in order to be able to work with an American.

Reed

Why wasn’t something like this done before?

It has Misty Blue. Go back and read the examples of the licensed massage therapists that are no longer allowed at the track without a vet or the dentist in Florida who is being prosecuted, despite being licensed by the state as an equine dentist for many years.

I’m sure there are quacks out there but everyone I know who uses a theraputic shoer, equine dentist, massage therpist, Chiro, etc uses one who is well established in the field, has the appropriate training etc. My old trainers chiro is a DC, an Alexander technique person and a horse chiro. And he rides so he’s able to evaluate the horse and rider together if needs be, which is amazingly helpful (I’m not a fan of chiro normally but he’s good). I wouldn’t want a vet to replace these people unless they were doing it full-time. A passing interest and a couple months training wouldn’t be enough for me to have confidence in them at all.

Again, I don’t use the more left-field modalities. I’m talking about traditional stuff like dentistry, massage, corrective shoeing for lamenesses like founder etc.

Florida has licensure for equine dentists?

There are more bad apples than good…which is the point of the bill.

Please someone show me proof of this-I have not heard ONE example of it.

(and NOT for money purposes…please no conspiracies)

If I read the word ’ conspiracies’ one more time, I think I’m going to vomit. Why is it just because YOU don’t believe it’s happening…it’s a conspiracy theory?
And for the record, there are schools out there that have more time and curriculum, there are colleges where people can get a degree. But guess what? It won’t matter!! Because they won’t be able to do anything with that degree either! So, even if we did do that-we’d be wasting our time and money.

“Grandfather us in” so we don’t have to spend another dime and don’t have to learn more and don’t have to change anything…that’s what I’m ‘hearing’ on this thread.

Actually you heard it ONCE. The ‘thread’ is about the laws being changed, taking away peoples freedom of choice.
And FYI, I am always learning more, taking more classes, etc. so that I can become better at what I do. Yes, those of us who are doing good, and have been for almost a decade now, should be grandfathered in. I have done nothing but helped those horses I have worked on. Those who I have worked on should be able to give me letters of recommendation so I can continue my work.

Not my compounding–it is from a source I consider reputable though. He was one of my herbal medicine teachers. He has multiple degrees and certifications in human and veterinary medicine, and runs an herbal pharmacy.

Again, because it’s something that YOU say is ok-then it’s good, right? So basically we have the same remedy, but your’s is better because ‘you say so’.:lol: Give me scientific proof, or it is just placebo effect…isn’t that what I’ve been told??:yes:

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;3046917]
There are more bad apples than good…which is the point of the bill.[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to the Indiana bill? I may have missed it, but what is the basis for your statement? One of the burning questions I have, after reading the text of the bill, is why? Is there data showing that “alternative” and/or “complementary” practitioners have done harm to animals? I would like to know the rationale behind it. Personally, I don’t know of any such cases myself, yet have had a licensed veterinarian F up my horse using an herbal salve.

Excerpt from the legislation:
“Amends the definition of “practice of veterinary medicine” to include the following acts done for compensation: (1) dispensing medicines to treat an animal.; B performing complementary or alternative therapy upon an animal;[/B] …”

Does anyone know how “alternative” and “complementary” are defined? Are regulations to follow that will provide an interpretation? It just sounds so vague. If licensing of alternative practitioners is the bigger concern, I don’t see how this law does diddly for that.

You expect for those that are already in this field to take a year or two off the go back to school. Most do not have the resources to not work for a year or two. That is how they make their living. And any living working with horses is a hard one. Most horse professionals in any area cannot afford to not work for a year. And again you have the vets in control of who can practice what. They don’t seem to believe any/much of it is valid anyway.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3046956]
Florida has licensure for equine dentists?[/QUOTE]

They license people to work on the race track. The state has taken that over from the pari-mutual people. You need to be licensed to be a trainer, farrier, dentist, etc.

Didn’t say it was better or good or even that it worked. Said I considered it safer because I knew where it came from. Same way I’m happy to provide them with vaccine to administer, because I know where it came from and how it was shipped.
My clients have a bit of trust in my judgement, even if you don’t. :smiley:

And no, I wouldn’t accept herbs from you to treat my patients, because, given what I’ve sen of your postings on this thread alone, I don’t consider you to be a reliable source.

Which is not the same thing as being a licensed dentist.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3046974]
Which is not the same thing as being a licensed dentist.[/QUOTE]

But the state has acknowledged that he does this as a profession. As I stated earlier, he teaches the vets how to do this type of work.

When has it happened? Show me proof…I want case studies-not just anecdotes

Case studies ARE anecdotes. However . . . you asked for documented contraindications to massage therapy (although you rattled off a list yourself a few pages back) so here you go:

Am J Phys Med Rehabil. 2007 Aug;86(8):691. Massive Pulmonary Embolus After Leg Massage.

or (from an online text)

Contraindications to massage
Massage is contraindicated when it could cause worsening of a particular condition, unwanted tissue destruction, or spread of disease. Malignancy, thrombi, atherosclerotic plaques, and infected tissue could be spread by massage.
Absolute contraindications to massage include (1) DVT, because increased blood flow in a limb could cause thrombus to detach from the vessel wall, creating an embolism; (2) acute infection; (3) bleeding; and (4) new, open wounds. Relative contraindications include (1) incompletely healed scar tissue, (2) fragile skin, (3) calcified soft tissue, (4) skin grafts, (5) atrophic skin, (6) inflamed tissue, (7) malignancy, (8) inflammatory muscle disease, and (9) pregnancy.
The physiatrist should be aware that massage must be used carefully in patients with chronic pain. The direct hands-on nature of massage may potentiate strong psychophysical effects and unintentional reliance of passive treatment modalities. In all patients, treatment end points must be established at the beginning, and treatment should be terminated when those end points are achieved.
A review of the safety of massage by Ernst found that most adverse effects of massage therapy came about as a consequence of performance by lay practitioners or by using exotic massage practices, other than Swedish-style massage. He further concluded that, while massage therapy is not entirely risk-free, reports of serious adverse effects appear to be rare (Ernst, 2003). The physiatrist, or other prescribing physician, would benefit from being aware of the training and experience of the massage therapist whom he or she is referring.

As to “do I provide FREE services”. The answer is yes. Approximately 10% of my patients have no insurance. They get treated the same as insured patients. You and I are actually paying for it. I have no problem with it, some do. That’s another whole topic, though. :slight_smile: I also volunteer my time teaching, giving lectures, educating groups of diabetics, heart failure patients, etc. etc. All gratis. I also kept track once and I give away a couple of thousand dollars in medication samples a week, too. All provided by Big, Bad Pharma, of course. The great Satan. :lol:

For myself (thank you for the offer) I don’t use herbal remedies, and (with all due respect) if I wanted to, I would require you or anyone else to provide me with some serious credentials before accepting your freebies. :slight_smile: Would you take medical treatments (alternative or otherwise) from an unqualified, untrained stranger who just sort of believed in it and found it interesting? Not I. :eek:

If drinking a certain tea thats supposed to cure cancer was not to work is this no different than expensive chemo which overwhelming majority of the time does no good either?

George, you have to precisely define what is meant here by “supposed to” and “majority of the time”. In the first case, there is NO evidence, ANYWHERE, that is supported by any sort of peer review, critique, or scientific experiment showing that whatever herbal tea you like to use as an example does diddly squat. In other words, you’re completely out there with no science, betting your life that those stories are true and the miracles are indeed attributable to the “miracle product”. Anecdotes just do not cut it in the scientific world (we like to call it the real world, LOL) because there are too many variables and too many things that can happen by chance to account for random success OR failures. A chemotherapy treatment that “does no good the majority of the time” would hardly be considered mainstream or first-line therapy (although I’m no oncologist) and would normally be reserved for a situation where there is very little hope anyhow. Look at it this way–if there is some God-awful cancer and the hope of survival is less than 5% WITHOUT chemo, but 20% WITH the chemo, would you choose it for yourself or a loved one? That treatment could very legitimately be said to “do no good the majority of the time”, but it beats the hell out of the alternative. At least for many people it does. The fact that cancer is a devastating, deadly disease does not change because we find some treatments that sometimes work. There is NO CURE, no singular therapy that “works”’; although some cancers can indeed be cured, the disease itself is still frighteningly difficult to treat and sometimes impossible.

And yet, cancer survivors are out there. LOTS of them. Not enough, not nearly enough, but my God, I can count probably a couple of HUNDRED of my own patients who’ve survived cancer thanks to chemo, radiation, surgery, etc. I honestly can’t count any, alas, that survived from teas or herbs or whatever else. :no:

The state of Florida has not established criteria by which to evaluate the competency of equine dentists and license them accordingly. The regulations under which he was licensed included kennel workers, jockey’s agents, and parimutuel clerks. The purpose of the license was no to ensure that he met some standard of proficiency in dentistry, but that he didn’t have a criminal record, and could therefore be allowed on the backstretch.

I’m certainly not going to argue that there are not well educated and trained non-veterinarians working on horse’s teeth.
However, I think it is in the interests of those well educated people as well as the horse owner who does not have the expertise to evaluate them that some minimum standards be set, and that the scope of their practice be defined.
I think you will find that many of the non-veterinarians doing teeth feel the same way. And they are organizing and attempting to hammer out some sort of educational requirements and accreditation standards. I applaud them.

[QUOTE=deltawave;3047007]

I also kept track once and I give away a couple of thousand dollars in medication samples a week, too. All provided by Big, Bad Pharma, of course. The great Satan. :lol: [/QUOTE] I could say something to that but you’re right is another topic

George, you have to precisely define what is meant here by “supposed to” and “majority of the time”. In the first case, there is NO evidence, ANYWHERE, that is supported by any sort of peer review, critique, or scientific experiment showing that whatever herbal tea you like to use as an example does diddly squat.
I was referring to the stuff Massage Lady was talking about. I will admit however that I never heard of it before but am at least open minded enough to listen. To dismiss it out of hand because it’s not mainstream looks too much like cult following to me.

Look at it this way–if there is some God-awful cancer and the hope of survival is less than 5% WITHOUT chemo, but 20% WITH the chemo, would you choose it for yourself or a loved one? That treatment could very legitimately be said to “do no good the majority of the time”, but it beats the hell out of the alternative. At least for many people it does.
Difficult question. Theory behind chemo is that you administer a poison to the patient(in violation of hippocratic oath) in the hopes that it kills the cancer before it does them:confused: Sounds kinda medieval when you think about it. Let’s see now. I had 2 aunts and 3 grandparents who all died of cancer. All of them got chemo and it not only didn’t help but made them die miserable lousy deaths. My father had cancer twice. Both times they were able to cut it out of him surgically. He’s still alive. If I were to think the worst of the doctors involved in those other cases I’d be inclined to believe they were padding bills for hopeless cases that may have lived longer if left alone.
The fact that cancer is a devastating, deadly disease does not change because we find some treatments that sometimes work. There is NO CURE, no singular therapy that “works”’; although some cancers can indeed be cured, the disease itself is still frighteningly difficult to treat and sometimes impossible.
True, and as you said before doctors and their families get it too. Why do they dismiss oxygen therapy for example? Or numerous other non-mainstream treatments? Granted the studies and peer review might not be there but don’t you think it worthy of a closer look? Seems going the chemo route is a case of repeating the same act hoping for a different result.

And yet, cancer survivors are out there. LOTS of them. Not enough, not nearly enough, but my God, I can count probably a couple of HUNDRED of my own patients who’ve survived cancer thanks to chemo, radiation, surgery, etc. I honestly can’t count any, alas, that survived from teas or herbs or whatever else. :no:
Is it really thanks to or in many cases in spite of? I know the radiation can be effective but that chemo I’m a hard sell on that. At least from what I’ve seen anyway when a cancer patient starts getting skinny their as good as dead. So in answer to your question is hard to say about someone I’m responsible for but for me anyway especially with my strong family history of cancers I think I’d lean against it for myself.
George

And no, I wouldn’t accept herbs from you to treat my patients, because, given what I’ve sen of your postings on this thread alone, I don’t consider you to be a reliable source.

Wow, I feel the same way about you…is that a coincidence?:lol:

My clients have a bit of trust in my judgement, even if you don’t.

So do mine, because they have seen my work.

Anecdotes just do not cut it in the scientific world (we like to call it the real world, LOL

then you say…

Case studies ARE anecdotes.

So, which is it??

For myself (thank you for the offer) I don’t use herbal remedies, and (with all due respect) if I wanted to, I would require you or anyone else to provide me with some serious credentials before accepting your freebies

Well we were all being painted with the broad brush stroke of ‘money grubbing snake oil salesman’ and only in it for the $$, I wanted to prove that I wasn’t. You made a remark of having to pay a ‘whopping’ $20 for something that has proven thousands of times to cure cancer-yet, you say if you were diagnosed with it, you wouldn’t even try it?? Now that you know about it.

IMO taking chemo and prescribing it is insane…the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. The results over 75% of the time are the same…patient dies. Let’s find a different cure people!! It obviously isn’t working. And we are the snake oil salesman?:lol:

You assume that we (meaning traditional practitioners) read the term “alternative” or “herbal” and automatically dismiss the stuff out of hand? NOT SO. However, we DO require that things be thoroughly studied, tested in rigorously designed trials before “we” will adopt a treatment and administer it to our patients. The problem with most of the “alternative” remedies is that they have NOT been tested to our satisfaction, or they have been tested and found lacking. Otherwise (tada!) they would be MAINSTREAM therapies, and not alternative. The only difference between the two, particularly when you are talking about herbs and plant-based remedies, is that the “mainstream” stuff has been scrutinized, tested, and proven to be worth using. Note that I didn’t say “perfect”, “without risk”, or “superior to every other treatment”! :slight_smile: What we have, and what we use, is FAR from perfect, but (this is the key point) IT BEATS THE HELL OUT OF DOING NOTHING most of the time.

You use the case of chemotherapy as “poisoning a patient on purpose in violation of the Hippocratic Oath”. While that is an interesting way of looking at it, I prefer to look at it this way: take a person with a disease that has a known, or at least very, very predictable, mortality/morbidity rate over time if left alone. Let’s use cancer as an example, it could also be tuberculosis, diabetes, clogged carotids, whatever. Each of these diseases has a number of treatments available. NO CURES, except maybe in the case of TB and some particular forms of cancer. But let’s agree there are many treatments. WHERE on earth do you begin? Certainly NOT by handing over a bottle of pills or sending the patient to the hospital for their IV. What, then? Why, you find out as much as you can about that person, his/her desires, expectations, and perceptions of the disease, its treatment, the options, and what may happen with each possible modality. Including doing nothing. You spend sometimes HOURS educating them on the disease they have, the various options, the pros and cons, the potential risks AND benefits. Then and ONLY then do you come up with a “plan”.

Let’s say that plan involves chemo, or “deliberate poisoning” as you prefer to call it. What if that plan seems by far the best option in the opinion of the patient? Would you still call it a violation of the Hippocratic oath? Well, it’s “poisoning the patient”! Even if the patient, fully informed, WISHES for the treatment, should I withhold it for fear of something bad happening? When the odds of “something bad happening” are TEN TIMES HIGHER if I don’t do it? How is that ethical?

Here’s another scenario. Ever been told by a doctor to take Tylenol? Ever done it on your own? The therapeutic window for Tylenol is QUITE narrow, and unintentional overdose is fairly common, particularly if one is fond of drinking alcohol. Is it, then, a violation of the Hippocratic oath to recommend Tylenol, knowing the patient could be POISONED by it? In fact it IS negligent to do so if you know the patient is a heavy drinker, or to do so without even asking the question.

I could come up with a hundred examples, but the point is that EVERY TIME a practitioner makes a recommendation, that practitioner is taking a risk. Sometimes it’s a small risk, sometimes it’s a BIG risk. Always, always, always, the goal is for the potential or perceived benefit to outweigh the potential or perceived risk. Otherwise you are a butcher. Amazingly, when they are well informed and educated, people often can make their OWN assessment of what is and is not “too risky”. Amazingly, they will often choose the risky treatment freely and without reservations. Should they not have this option, if little else is available to them? Or should we simply write off the “sick ones” and withhold ANY potentially risky therapy out of fear of “doing harm”?

It ain’t for sissies, medicine. If you can’t assume responsibility for making some heavy, heavy decisions, for bad things happening, for sometimes being WRONG, you don’t belong in this kind of field. But ahhh, I’m not trying to sound like it’s some sort of superhero thing. Having wandered away from my original point, let me say simply that chemo, although it is a terrifying word, is one aspect of medicine (among many) that is getting a little “kinder and gentler” over time, for one thing, and has (really!) more benefits than risks in the grand scheme of things. Considering the opponent, it is not hard to fathom why the ammunition needs to be so powerful. :frowning: Or, in other words, consider the alternative. :no:

If I were diagnosed with cancer I’d put my money (and my life) on things that have a track record, scientific research to back it up. Just saying something is miraculous doesn’t make it so, unless you’re God. :slight_smile: If the “miracle cures” work, where is the proof? [Cue the chirping crickets}

ML, anecdotes and case studies are the same thing, I’ve never said any different. Stories about individuals. We call them what they are, but we do NOT substitute them for scientific research, where large numbers of individuals in controlled circumstances are purposely followed with the precise intention of testing a particular treatment or intervention.

And I sincerely and honestly hope NOBODY here ever, ever has need of my services. :slight_smile: My patients are rarely “healthy” and I am never happier than when I can tell someone they have no professional need of me. :slight_smile: But it wasn’t me who said “I don’t consider you a reliable source”. So aim your barbs with more precision, please. :slight_smile: