Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

Oh my goodness … what a discussion! Now I have a question for the vets around. I have been refused veterinary care for an EMERGENCY basis since my horses are not regularly vaccinated and I am not a “regular client”. I also went through 5 !!! vets trying to find someone who would help me when my 14 year old Newfoundland finally gave in and collapsed at the bottom of my stairs. One vet had the GD nerve to tell me that “well, its gonna cost ya $250 right off the bat for a complete exam and blood profile to make sure you’re not making any mistakes.” I’ll repeat … a 14 YEAR OLD NEWFOUNDLAND!!! Or, why a vet would tell a client with a dying Bunny … 'We don’t DO “bunnies” on Saturdays - You’ll have to wait until next Wednesday."

So, tell ME now who is in it for the $$ and convenience. If the welfare of the animal is first in heart and mind then why won’t they treat someone who isn’t a “regular” client or whom has not vaccinated his/her animals regularly. THIS INFURIATES ME. Do you not take the oath to “First, Do No Harm”? If so, then how in hell could someone refuse and emergency … a life or death situation?

Now, you tell me why I started studying alternative methods of medicine and healing? And why so many others are, too?

(Shoulda not read this topic at all … :frowning: :frowning: :frowning: )

I use herbs, Homeopathy, Acupressure, Non-Invasive Massage and Energy to work with horses (and other animals). This is NOT in place of a vet … this is in addition to regular veterinary care. How many vets out there are TRAINED and STUDIED in these forms of healing. Don’t give a rats patooey whether or not you think they’re legit forms of “healing” or not … animals don’t lie. So when an animal does a 180 with a Homeopathic Remedy or a stint of herbal treatments, don’t tell me that they don’t work.

AND … who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY over an animal … not to do “energy” work or “non-invasive massage” or TTOUCH or TTEAM or electro-acupuncture or Homeopathy NONE OF WHICH IS INVASIVE OR HARMFUL.

Oh, and as for hoofcare … how many vets are TRAINED in hoofcare? The experience I’ve had is a vet telling a client that I KILLED ALL THE NERVES IN THE HORSE’S LEG by pulling the shoes. GIVE ME A BREAK! (That was in response to the vet saying the horse was absolutely in horrific pain, 5 on the lameness scale as the horse was galloping down (escaped out an open gate) a tarred road.)

Ya, tell me its not about egos and $$$.

Agreed. And though MassageLady insists folks like her are not “practicing veterinary medicine” that’s not an accurate statement. Many of them in fact do try and practice medicine. By disparaging real science, and touting their particular method as a “cure” or “treatment” they are actually diagnosing and treating conditions.

Trouble is - they don’t have the knowledge, skills or ability to make a determination as to what treatment the horse requires; if any. I disagree that horses have not been harmed with such treatments, as I have seen firsthand that it’s simply not the case.

I think MassageLady and the other folks are just using this thread to tout the benefits of their own magikal snake oil. It’s no use arguing with fanatics. One just hopes to God no animal is harmed when they use their voodoo.

******* FEAR BOMB **********

Perhaps the veterinarians you called already had their hands full with people with whom they had a veterinarian/client/patient relationship. We have no way of knowing.

I also went through 5 !!! vets trying to find someone who would help me when my 14 year old Newfoundland finally gave in and collapsed at the bottom of my stairs. One vet had the GD nerve to tell me that “well, its gonna cost ya $250 right off the bat for a complete exam and blood profile to make sure you’re not making any mistakes.” I’ll repeat … a 14 YEAR OLD NEWFOUNDLAND!!!

You were apparently offered care, if you were quoted a price.
Why is it incumbent upon the veterinarian to treat your dog for a discount because he’s old? Would you have been happier had you not been told the fees in advance?

Or, why a vet would tell a client with a dying Bunny … 'We don’t DO “bunnies” on Saturdays - You’ll have to wait until next Wednesday."

Perhaps the veterinarian in the practice who has expertise in lagomorphs was not there. Would the client have been well served to have someone who felt less than comfortable with treating rabbits see the pet? Then you’d be able to complain that the vet who saw the rabbit didn’t know enough about them…

Hard to say, since your horror stories are vague and we’re only hearing part of one side.

So, tell ME now who is in it for the $$ and convenience.

Well, from one angle, the owners in the above cases.

If the welfare of the animal is first in heart and mind then why won’t they treat someone who isn’t a “regular” client or whom has not vaccinated his/her animals regularly. THIS INFURIATES ME. Do you not take the oath to “First, Do No Harm”? If so, then how in hell could someone refuse and emergency … a life or death situation?

Because veterinarians are not some sort of combination of Mother Theresa, James Herriot and the Bank of America.
They have to set limits if they are to care adequately for the animals they do serve, to make a living, and to have a life outside of their practice.
Multiply your one emergency by many other non-clients calling. How are they supposed to run from putting out fire after fire for people who only call in a crisis and still show up remotely on time for their scheduled visits?
You want a veterinarian at the drop of a hat, put one on retainer or haul your animals to the veterinary school where they have 24/7 emergency service.

AND … who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY over an animal … not to do “energy” work or “non-invasive massage” or TTOUCH or TTEAM or electro-acupuncture or Homeopathy NONE OF WHICH IS INVASIVE OR HARMFUL.

What lovely straw men you build…

[quote=Ghazzu;3047277]

Because veterinarians are not some sort of combination of Mother Theresa, James Herriot and the Bank of America.
They have to set limits if they are to care adequately for the animals they do serve, to make a living, and to have a life outside of their practice.[/QUOTE]
What does this have to do with the topic - or is this the reason they have to co-opt 'shady, non-medical, non-tested, unproven, but which actually do in fact diagnose and treat now which makes them so dangerous outside of their skilled hands, therapies? (if that’s not a contradiction I don’t know what is).

What lovely straw men you build…

Not at all. That’s actually the original point of this thread.

The AVMA has ACTUALLY told people to NOT PRAY over an animal? I find that . . . implausible. Or histrionic. Or hyperbolic. Or all of the above. :lol:

who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY

Kind of reminds me of getting in trouble for saying “bad words” as a little kid and having my mom ask me “where the hell did you learn language like that?!” She caught herself, laughed, and that was kind of the end of it. :lol:

“I don’t consider you a reliable source”.
I wasn’t talking to you, DW. Please re-read that post.

ML, anecdotes and case studies are the same thing, I’ve never said any different. Stories about individuals. We call them what they are, but we do NOT substitute them for scientific research, where large numbers of individuals in controlled circumstances are purposely followed with the precise intention of testing a particular treatment or intervention.

It’s the same thing!! Only with this-a pharmaceutical company most likely is doing the ‘testing’…not a herbalist, or homeopath. They will do studies also.

Agreed. And though MassageLady insists folks like her are not “practicing veterinary medicine” that’s not an accurate statement. Many of them in fact do try and practice medicine. By disparaging real science, and touting their particular method as a “cure” or “treatment” they are actually diagnosing and treating conditions.

I would never, nor have I ever done anything of the sort. I’ve never told a client that my massage would cure their animal. Although, most times the animals have recovered, there are times that I did need to call in a vet-one whom I trust.:winkgrin:

Trouble is - they don’t have the knowledge, skills or ability to make a determination as to what treatment the horse requires; if any. I disagree that horses have not been harmed with such treatments, as I have seen firsthand that it’s simply not the case

Then please share it with us. I am usually called out because the people believe a horse is sore, I do massage (get it??). I will '‘evaluate’ the horse for soreness, if I find the horse is sore, then I will work on that animal. If I don’t find soreness…at least to the point as to what I think it should be for what the people are saying is the problem, then I will tell them there is something else going on, and they need to call someone else. I know my boundaries, I’m smarter than you think.:yes:

I think MassageLady and the other folks are just using this thread to tout the benefits of their own magikal snake oil. It’s no use arguing with fanatics. One just hopes to God no animal is harmed when they use their voodoo.

It’s spelled ‘magical’.:winkgrin: And it amazes me that when someone has no other argument, they go to the ‘snake oil and voodoo’ comment.
Would someone get me a chicken?!?!?! I need the blood please!!!:lol: And bones, lots of bones!!:lol:

It was hard to tell who you were aiming at there, ML, without attributions in your quotes. :slight_smile:

How is a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial the “same thing” as a collection of anecdotes? (or case reports, if you like) You really, honestly think that a study of 10,000 individuals evenly matched, to eliminate confounding variables, for all other characteristics except for the fact that half are getting the studied treatment and half are getting placebo the “same thing” as a collection of stories with no mention of confounding variables, specific treatment regimens, precise diagnosis, etc? You really, honestly and truly think they are the SAME THING in terms of scientific validity? That the data derived from one type of observation is no better or worse than the other? SURELY if you’re “smarter than we think” the incongruity of this type of comparison is impossible to reconcile.

Many studies are indeed done by pharmaceutical companies, but a WHOLE BIG PILE of them are not. They are, however, done by scientists, using the scientific method. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? It is decidedly NOT the same thing as a collection of heartwarming anecdotes, carefully selected to weed out the not-so-happy endings. As another poster often says (Katy, I think?) science is dispassionate, and you take the good results with the bad results and draw your conclusions, even if they weren’t what you hoped for. Where do all the BAD anecdotes go?

MassageLady - you are greatly mistaken. On the COTH BB, magical is indeed spelled, “magikal”.

I don’t think anyone will disagree with me on that.

Also, you seem to think I’ve got some sort of problem with your personally. You seem to be taking all of this chitchat awfully personally, considering none of us know you. “you folks” is plural.

The ISSUE is non veterinarians performing certain therapies on animals without the supervision or knowledge of a veterinarian. There are bills floating around that would either outlaw such therapies, or define them too narrowly. In which case - you better get off your butt and do something about it. hint: internet chatter is not “doing something”

As I’ve written, several times, this ISSUE is not unique. There are hundreds of thousands of laypeople in the US who have gone through the same thing.

Instead of putting all your energy into fruitless internet debate, you’d be well advised to focus on developing your occupations credibility and reputation within your jurisdiction. Making disparaging comments about folks who have given you excellent talking points, helpful advice, and personal anecdotes does nothing to further your cause.

They’re pushing up daisies.

![]( would like to know, in Indiana, who would be in trouble here for practicing on my horse? The non-veterinarian chiropractor or his caped assistant, Wilson?

[IMG]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Tanager/ChiroAndDog.jpg)

Your guess is as good as mine–I didn’t drag yet another litany of evil vet stories into this thread–caballus did.

I failed to mention in my post that when I called about my Newfie it was to have him euthanized … not “treated” as he was beyond treatment.

I’m going to guess… Wilson.

The chiro is wearing cowboy boots and a well worn jacket. Not a girly man. So he’s gotta be on the up and up.

The dog…muddy paddock, clean dog - something very suspicious about that!

[QUOTE=caballus;3047397]
I failed to mention in my post that when I called about my Newfie it was to have him euthanized … not “treated” as he was beyond treatment.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to hear that Gwen,

Is a painful thing and really sucks:(
George

Tsk, tsk, and you call yourself spiritual.

It’s considered a therapy, just like laying on of hands. Therefore - one may not do it without a DVM at the end of one’s name.

The real point of this discussion is not “IF” you believe these therapies work. It is that in many areas they will become unavailable to the consumer. The consumers that want a choice need to help stand up for those that are preforming these services that they are using. (The ones that use a non-vet to preform these.) The fight needs to be in the legislature at the federal level. Without numbers backing this, the voice will not be heard. I am sure most horse owners didn’t check their brains aat the door when they bought a horse. They can think and research for themselves to find the best plan for their animals. I know at the hearings in FL to get the laws and wordings changed, the vets spoke of the consumers as though they had the IQ of a kindergartener. Come on we are smarter than that. IF you are not maybe you don’t need to have any animal.

The ‘therapies’ will still be available, you just need to secure those services through a vet or a certified or licensed person if that option is available.

While I agree that horse people didn’t check their brains at the door when buying a horse ( most people anyway) I do not agree that the layman is capable of chosing the best treatment plan for their horse. That takes specific knowledge.
I prefer to trust in a professional. You know, someone that actually has REAL training or educational background in a profession ( not a 3 day course).
I’d like to think I’m smart enough to realize that I’m not capable of making treatment decisions for an animal without a conversation with a vet.

Oh…I don’t know about that. I’ve seen lots of evidence to indicate otherwise. Not all of them, but unfortunately a good many. The hacks of any trade are still making a living.

The therapies may not be available if you live in an area where cow vets do all the horse work as there are no equine vets in the area. And in some areas, the vets are very anti-alternative because they don’t have hard “proof” it works. I would still like the option of using something else when the vets give up.