I live in an area of cow vets. The one equine vet left my horse for dead. I sought help elsewhere. Other less lazy horse owners can do the same. I feel absolutely NO sympathy over an excuse like above. I’ve overcome a LOT of hurdles to get my horse dealt with.
For those that have decided to simply euth, I can’t blame them. But blaming it on living in a rural area? Nah, that dog don’t hunt.
Yes you can look for other options. Not everyone can put a horse in a trailer and haul it 6+ hours to find someone else. I could but there are other that don’t have that option with jobs, family, etc.
If jobs and family are in the way, then they need to get rid of the horse or put it down. Continuing on the wrong path (knowlingly) can only be blamed on a bad practitioner for so long. If the person knows the practitioner can’t help, then it’s the owner’s fault for continuing to go to that practitioner. It prolongs the animal’s discomfort.
I guess it goes back to what others have said: instead of whining here on a BB, people should organize. It saved pergolide (even if temporarily)!
MassageLady - you are greatly mistaken. On the COTH BB, magical is indeed spelled, “magikal”.
Just because everyone spells it wrong, doesn’t make it correct.
Instead of putting all your energy into fruitless internet debate,
That’s not what this thread was started for, it was started for information to those who either use alternative therapies, or provide them. Others decided it was going to be a debate.
How is a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial the “same thing” as a collection of anecdotes? (or case reports, if you like) You really, honestly think that a study of 10,000 individuals evenly matched, to eliminate confounding variables, for all other characteristics except for the fact that half are getting the studied treatment and half are getting placebo the “same thing” as a collection of stories with no mention of confounding variables, specific treatment regimens, precise diagnosis, etc? You really, honestly and truly think they are the SAME THING in terms of scientific validity?
You dont’ think that there are people in this area that KNOW how to do the same thing? puulllease! You don’t think that new herbs/remedies are documented to see what happens, if it actually helps the patient? The one big difference is this…we dont’ give sugar pills to sick people-and allow them to get worse. Isn’t that what we’re accused of doing?:yes:
Um, this was an emergency to put an animal out of misery.
You were apparently offered care, if you were quoted a price.
Why is it incumbent upon the veterinarian to treat your dog for a discount because he’s old? Would you have been happier had you not been told the fees in advance?
I’m sorry … why would I pay to have a complete exam plus CBC etc. to have a 14 year old dog euthanized?
Perhaps the veterinarian in the practice who has expertise in lagomorphs was not there. Would the client have been well served to have someone who felt less than comfortable with treating rabbits see the pet? Then you’d be able to complain that the vet who saw the rabbit didn’t know enough about them…
No, the vet was there. How do I know? I worked there as Surgical Asst.
Hard to say, since your horror stories are vague and we’re only hearing part of one side.
Not prone to exaggerate or lie.
Because veterinarians are not some sort of combination of Mother Theresa, James Herriot and the Bank of America.
They have to set limits if they are to care adequately for the animals they do serve, to make a living, and to have a life outside of their practice.
Well, animals do have a way, as to humans, of inconveniencing life, don’t they?
Multiply your one emergency by many other non-clients calling. How are they supposed to run from putting out fire after fire for people who only call in a crisis and still show up remotely on time for their scheduled visits?
You want a veterinarian at the drop of a hat, put one on retainer or haul your animals to the veterinary school where they have 24/7 emergency service.
That’s exactly what we did. Thanks. Meanwhile the dog had to suffer for another three hours instead of being euthanized quickly in a matter of less than 1/2 hr.
And you became a vet why? So you can treat animals in need at your convenience? And vets wonder why people seek alternatives. And now, vets want exclusive rights to caring for the animals that so inconvenience them. Sheeeeesh. Makes perfect sense to me!
How many vets are trained in Equine Massage? How many vets are trained in Equine Acupressure or Acupuncture or Chiropractics or Herbs or Homeopathy or Bioscan or Aromatherapy or other alternative and complementary care? Why should animal lovers be forced into boxes without the choice of having their animals treated in the manner they see fit by educated, experienced professionals?
OK, what’s the placebo that the people in your area are using??
Caballus, having worked in human emergency rooms, I’m familiar with folks using that as their “medical care” or even for pill-seeking. I’ve been shocked at watching jockeys shoot up banamine at the tracks, let alone taking bute pills. That all said, it might be worth investigating what Ghazzu is alluding to, without calling you one of those folks. I am sorry about your Newfie, however. I’m not trying to be cold about that. I’m trying to keep the conversation straight about what can happen.
For example, the cat asleep on her Purr-Pad next to me, Bo stepped on as a kitten. Degloved her paw. In a state of tears and bordering on nuts, I hauled tail and took her to an emergency clinic. Thankfully, I had a card to put up before they treated her. I didn’t think twice about it, these people work for a living and deserve to be paid. They treated her, she lived, and all was well. But what about the folks that don’t believe in credit cards? I never thought about that then. The fact they simply told you upfront what the price was for an emergency call would have been fine by me. Matter of fact, same cat and 13 years later, she got very sick on me while on a med from the vet. When I had to get Bo to Jaye’s. I asked a friend to take her for me to the vet on call while I hauled Bo. the vet told me the price for an emergency fee, I said “That’s fine! I’m afraid she won’t make it till tomorrow.” He met my friend, and discovered I had a VERY sick cat. She was diagnosed with CHF, and she’s still alive. I’m thankful. Not that you wouldn’t be thankful if your animal lived, I’m not saying that. But I can understand where a vet wants to get paid.
Because the vet doesn’t know you from Adam’s off ox, and might be thinking that the dog wasn’t terminal?
Well, animals do have a way, as to humans, of inconveniencing life, don’t they?
That works in both directions.
That’s exactly what we did. Thanks. Meanwhile the dog had to suffer for another three hours instead of being euthanized quickly in a matter of less than 1/2 hr.
You couldn’t get immediate attention for your animal–that’s unfortunate, but it is not necessarily anyone’s fault.
And you became a vet why? So you can treat animals in need at your convenience? And vets wonder why people seek alternatives. And now, vets want exclusive rights to caring for the animals that so inconvenience them. Sheeeeesh. Makes perfect sense to me!
My, my. Aren’t we all sweetness and light?
I put in my share of insane hours for people with no $$$. I no longer feel an obligation to jump every time someone–especially someone who I have no prior relationship with–calls me on the phone.
How many vets are trained in Equine Massage? How many vets are trained in Equine Acupressure or Acupuncture or Chiropractics or Herbs or Homeopathy or Bioscan or Aromatherapy or other alternative and complementary care?
Probably more than you think.
Why should animal lovers be forced into boxes without the choice of having their animals treated in the manner they see fit by educated, experienced professionals?
I have no problem at all with people using educated professionals to treat animals.
It would be nice though, if people could have some assurance that they were educated, and didn’t just get their credentials off a home study course. And I suspect that’s what’s behind the Indiana legislation.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3047904]
Because the vet doesn’t know you from Adam’s off ox, and might be thinking that the dog wasn’t terminal?[/QUOTE]
Possibly. Or possibly the vet was just being a jerk.
Callabus, I have found myself given similar treatment from a veterinarian I had used for several years.
It had been about eight months since I had last called the clinic (had used a different vet a couple of times in the meantime). I called during normal business hours about my filly that might need stitches.
They asked me why I didn’t just use whatever vet I had been using (how did they know I had used anyone?). Well, it just so happened that the other vet I had used (vet #2) had left the practice where she was working and was not available. It was never my intention to sever ties with the first clinic. I told vet #1 this, and she basically told me “tough shit.” This after spending thousands of dollars there over seven years.
Vet #2 later partnered up with vet #1 and formed a new practice. I would have liked to use them, because they are both good doctors, but after the way I was treated by vet #1 I figured she did not need or appreciate my business, and that I would not be able to count on her in an emergency.
This taught me a lesson, though, about how to keep a regular relationship with a vet clinic. I schedule spring and fall appointments, at a minimum for brief exams and to have teeth checked, and I usually have the vet give one or two vaccines (usually WNV in Spring). Other vaccines I will give myself if I feel they are warranted.
This clinic has never let me down in an emergency. I still consult other veterinarians when I feel I need a certain specialist or a second opinion, but I make sure to keep regular contact with this one clinic.
So, even if you don’t want to vaccinate your horses, you might just have a vet out for a physical exam, check teeth and get an occasional vaccine – think of it as an insurance policy.
The AVMA has ACTUALLY told people to NOT PRAY over an animal? I find that . . . implausible. Or histrionic. Or hyperbolic. Or all of the above.
Actually if you got o the AVMA site and read their definition of complimentary and alternative therapies it does include “energy therapy” as well as Bach flower remedies and some other clearly-nothing-to-do-with science-type things. They say that vets are qualified to use and proscribe this and other alternative modalities.
Now that’s pretty stupid: I think Reiki is the biggest bunch of crap on the planet and it’s definitely nowhere near a medical treatment of any kind. If any vet tried to tell me it was, well, I’d fire them forthwith.
You could argue that the vets are just trying to protect us from shysters by including that in the definition of veterinary treatment but that’s not their job. We have laws for that already.
btw: case studies are NOT anecdotes. I’m presenting on a few next week and I assure you I will not be relying on anecdotal evidence.
http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/comp_alt_medicine.asp
I’m not reading “prayer” out of that…please advise?
I’ve been shocked at watching jockeys shoot up banamine at the tracks, let alone taking bute pills.
That would be the fault of the idiot taking them not ‘alternative’ people. Only vets can give those drugs out.:winkgrin:
If jobs and family are in the way, then they need to get rid of the horse or put it down.
Well, in order to have a horse-one really should have a job, most employers don’t understand ‘my horse is sick, I’ll be in later’. Many people cannot afford a trailer to haul their horse to a vet that is several hours away. How about a real answer??
And I suspect that’s what’s behind the Indiana legislation.
WEll…you would be wrong. What’s behind the Indiana legislation is a human chiro-certified to do horses, was asked to stop working on the horses, and she refused, took them to court-and lost. They saw their open door and went for it.
OK, what’s the placebo that the people in your area are using??
As I already stated, we don’t believe in placebo-sugar pills to someone who is sick??? Isn’t that malpractice? Isn’t that what we’re accused of doing? WE treat everyone that comes in…then document those findings.
Silver, have you ever had any ‘energy work’ done on you? By someone that is trained in it? If so, you would feel differently. I am an HTA practitioner (Healing Touch for Animals), and while I’ve been trained on animals, I do work on people also (energy is energy no matter who it is). I have helped many people work thru their pain…worked with many that could NOT get into see their doctor for over a week with a UTI! Helped a woman with asthma to be able to breathe and actually have a good sleep-first time in 2 weeks! The reason I studied it is because of the effects it had on me from a massage therapist that did it on me. People that laughed at me at work, believed I could help once they needed it and asked for me to work on them. ONe girl, with back pain for 10yrs told me I was the only person that gave her relief (even after going to a spine specialist who told her he could no longer help her…of course after she’s been addicted to pain pills). So…go ahead and fire those who might actually help you or your horse someday-keep that closed mind, that will lead to headaches.
case studies are NOT anecdotes
Sorry…DW said they were!!:yes:
Interesting to me is that the first action taken against Dr. Buss was by the state chiropractic board.
For the record, I disagree with the stand that a DC with AVCA credentials is not allowed to practice on horses.
So, even if you don’t want to vaccinate your horses, you might just have a vet out for a physical exam, check teeth and get an occasional vaccine – think of it as an insurance policy.
Actually, I now do have a great vet clinic as well as a Homeopathic DVM with whom I work. And yes, its an “insurance policy”.
Caballus, having worked in human emergency rooms, I’m familiar with folks using that as their “medical care” or even for pill-seeking. I’ve been shocked at watching jockeys shoot up banamine at the tracks, let alone taking bute pills. That all said, it might be worth investigating what Ghazzu is alluding to, without calling you one of those folks. I am sorry about your Newfie, however. I’m not trying to be cold about that. I’m trying to keep the conversation straight about what can happen.
I, too, have worked in ERs as does our daughter. So I understand what you’re saying. However, at least the hospital SEES the people that come in - the 5 vets I called that day wouldn’t even see us. Besides the DVM who wanted to do a complete work up another asked if we had had the dog flea and tick dipped within the last 10 days and said if not, they couldn’t allow us in their clinic. yadi,yadi, yadi. Been around long enough to remember ‘the good ole days’ when there wasn’t HMO’s and Vets (and Drs., too) actually made house calls. Seems to me that the welfare of the animal (and humans) was taken as a priority more so back then than they are now. Asides from that, though, why the need to take away people’s choices as to the type of health care one chooses? Why balloon it all under the initials, DVM? If that’s going to be the way it is then maybe the schools better add to their repertoire of studies offered to include the “Alternatives” and “Complementaries” as MANDATORY segments of study? Add 3 or 4 more years to studies in order to certify as DVM so everyone can become qualified to administer such care?
I have no problem at all with people using educated professionals to treat animals.
It would be nice though, if people could have some assurance that they were educated, and didn’t just get their credentials off a home study course. And I suspect that’s what’s behind the Indiana legislation.
What happened to caveat emptor? In my experience I’ve found most “alternative” caretakers, lately, to be more dedicated than those who are burnt out with the rules and regs. of traditional med. There’s always going to be the “fly by night” characters who are looking for an easy buck or two - the “shysters” or the “snake oil salesmen”. They don’t last long, tho, as word does spread fast. The good ones quickly become overwhemingly busy.
Thankfully, I had a card to put up before they treated her. I didn’t think twice about it, these people work for a living and deserve to be paid.
I’m not talking at all about getting paid. I work for a living, too, and expect to be paid for my services. That was not the issue with our dog or the vets. I do understand that it is with many, however.
I’ll put this question out there - if one of you DVMs here were to receive a call late at night from an owner with whom you are not familiar, who is frantic because her beloved mare had dropped to the ground and was writhing and rolling in agony in obvious serious colic, would you go to treat that animal?
As my cardiology professor’s favorite answer goes, “it depends”.
I know at least one colleague who was set up with a scenario like this and assaulted and robbed. I’m sure there are more.
While I’m not doing much practicing at present, I did get a call last Sunday from a former client who had a mare with a problem and couldn’t reach her current DVM (he turns his cellphone off in church ), and I threw a bunch of equipment and supplies in the truck and went.
A stranger in the middle of the night? I’m not so sure. I’ve done it in the past, though.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3048766]
As my cardiology professor’s favorite answer goes, “it depends”.
I know at least one colleague who was set up with a scenario like this and assaulted and robbed. I’m sure there are more.
While I’m not doing much practicing at present, I did get a call last Sunday from a former client who had a mare with a problem and couldn’t reach her current DVM (he turns his cellphone off in church ), and I threw a bunch of equipment and supplies in the truck and went.
A stranger in the middle of the night? I’m not so sure. I’ve done it in the past, though.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking why would you try to blame vets for not coming, when it is the owner who should have provisions for the care of their animals in place?
We have a regular vet clinic and if we for some reason could not get them in an emergency, there are others that we know, that used to work at that main clinic and then started their own we can call on, that know us and our animals.
One branched out as an emergency traveling vet, just for that.
The owner you describe should have a protocol for emergencies that doesn’t involve asking a strange vet out of the blue and expect it to drop everything to come over.
Since the world and horse owners are not perfect, our vets also do get some such calls and, as Gazzu said, it depends if they feel such a call is really one they need to answer themselves, or refer the caller to other services.
[QUOTE=caballus;3048248]
I’ll put this question out there - if one of you DVMs here were to receive a call late at night from an owner with whom you are not familiar, who is frantic because her beloved mare had dropped to the ground and was writhing and rolling in agony in obvious serious colic, would you go to treat that animal?[/QUOTE]
So what you are saying is that an alternative practitioner should have to option of attending to a strange horse in the same condition? What, you would show up with healing hands and a LED when a horse has ruptured its gut?
How does this question even relate to OP? If you are advocating for the OP, then your need for the vet goes away. Many folks on farms when confronted with your same situation take matters into their own hands without repercussion. As a matter of fact a recent thread on the eventing forum discussed what happened in a large blizzard a couple of months ago.
Reed
Silver2, a case study is a description of ONE individual patient, or, well, one “case”. In that sense, it is the same as an anecdote in that it is ONE description of ONE patient’s course, outcome, etc. A series of case studies is not the same as a single anecdote. My point was to distinguish anecdotal evidence (a series of singular reports) from purposely designed and statistically valid research. Using various forms of knowledge, data, etc. are important in presenting a “case study” but my point is that a case study, strictly speaking (without the use of external data to make a particular point) IS an “anecdotal” report of a singular incident or event or patient. Anecdote simply means a short summary of a singular occurrence. As distinct from a collection of data.
You don’t think that new herbs/remedies are documented to see what happens, if it actually helps the patient? The one big difference is this…we dont’ give sugar pills to sick people-and allow them to get worse.
Documenting results after the fact is what is called retrospective study. Far inferior to prospective study (which does require placebo or control groups) in terms of documenting statistically valid results that are meaningful and outside the realm of chance. And volunteers KNOW they may be getting placebo ahead of time. No valid medical research is done without informed consent. What do you tell your herbal remedy patients when they ask about efficacy, safety, and superiority when compared to other treatments? That in your experience it works? That you’ve not heard of any bad outcomes? If that’s good enough for them, great. It sure ain’t good enough for anyone I’m responsible for.
my point is that a case study, strictly speaking (without the use of external data to make a particular point) IS an “anecdotal” report of a singular incident or event or patient. Anecdote simply means a short summary of a singular occurrence. As distinct from a collection of data.
A case study is a well monitored and studied single case, that produces hard data and typically uses methods that can be replicated elsewhere. The difference between a case study and a regular study in non-technical terms is that it is only one “case”, typically in an uncontrolled setting (ie real life) and so broad conclusions cannot be drawn in a statistically valid way. It is not an anecdote in the scientific sense and no researcher would say it is. Anecdotal evidence, as the term is used in the research community, is an event or historical series of events that were related to the researcher by someone but their account is not supported with hard data.
Massage Lady’s accounts of energy healing are anecdotal. If she had taken some quantitative measures of one patient’s level of pain and function over time then it would be a case study. Of course, case studies vary in their quality just like any other kind of study.
my point is that a case study, strictly speaking (without the use of external data to make a particular point)
That makes no sense. A case study is always a part of something bigger so of course it has external data included to give it context: “modeling showed us that x could be expected to happen so we tested it in three cases and the model was validated in 2 out of the 3 but in the third y happened. We think this was because of factors a, b and c at site 3 that were not accounted for in the model. Please give us more money to add modules to the model thankyouverymuch” :).
Maybe anecdotal-but the people thanked me for helping them-and THAT is the bottom line…wouldn’t you agree??? If I can help just one person with what I am doing, then I am doing my job. But…I have helped dozens of people and animals (hundreds of horses btw).
Massage Lady’s accounts of energy healing are anecdotal. If she had taken some quantitative measures of one patient’s level of pain and function over time then it would be a case study.
And it’s difficult when you are in a bathroom at a race track and the person in the stall next to you, whom you don’t know, is having excruciating pain from a UTI-because her doctor can’t get her in for NINE DAYS.:eek: So…I did what I could-didn’t know her from Adam, she didn’t know me-but with my ‘voodoo and snake oil, chicken blood’ I just happened to have in my purse :lol:, she was better and in alot less pain when she left the bathroom than when she came in. I didn’t ask for a dime (so much for us money grubbers). I heard later that week that apparently she told her friend, her friend told someone else, and they were talking about it in the cafeteria.:yes: So, I guess that might be a case study! Even after several days, her pain was still gone. Of course, she should take something for the UTI-and she knew that…I just helped with the pain.
—“And it’s difficult when you are in a bathroom at a race track and the person in the stall next to you, whom you don’t know, is having excruciating pain from a UTI-because her doctor can’t get her in for NINE DAYS. So…I did what I could-didn’t know her from Adam, she didn’t know me-but with my ‘voodoo and snake oil, chicken blood’ I just happened to have in my purse , she was better and in alot less pain when she left the bathroom than when she came in. I didn’t ask for a dime (so much for us money grubbers). I heard later that week that apparently she told her friend, her friend told someone else, and they were talking about it in the cafeteria. So, I guess that might be a case study! Even after several days, her pain was still gone. Of course, she should take something for the UTI-and she knew that…I just helped with the pain.”—
Good example how a little knowledge is dangerous.
First, you didn’t have a way of diagnosing what was wrong, it could have been a kidney stone that was passing and did pass past where it was so painful, or who knows what.
You say it was an UTI? By what proof? Why not a kidney stone, just to add a differential diagnosis that makes more sense than passing your hands over her stopping the pain?
What if it was referred pain from a ruptured appendix and your intervention, thru a placebo effect, was keeping her from proper care that much longer?:eek:
The trouble with alternative medicines is that they are just that, alternative and will stay that way until someone, somewhere, can have enough proper studies to show if and how they work.
I definitely would want any such alternative practitioners to be certified and licensed, just as beauticians, plumbers, electricians, real estate agents, doctors and lawyers are.
We need to assure a MINIMUM standard for all and accountability to someone for the ones that are not on the level, really ignorant or outright crooks.
Especially those in the know and on the level should, for their own good, request some kind of regulation.
Without it, they will just be seen as snake oil salesmen, with unproven practices, without corroborative studies, praying on the gullible.
Certification would give them at least some semblance of being something other than what they are today, someone selling something no one can show it works.
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