Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

[JHUshoer20]

Hey Massage Lady,

As a horseshoer, I can readily admit that standards of my trade have declined in this country. For me to see some of the people that are coming into the trade today gives me the same sick and disgusted feeling one gets when meeting an old sweetheart in a bordello. for this reason I am a staunch advocate of mandatory testing and state licensing. There are many who disagree with me for various reasons but nonetheless I see that a gullible public with money to spend is a big target for unscrupulous people.

Would you also admit that in your trade the same conditions exist but possibly even worse? At least if a horseshoer does a lousy job somebody might notice. How in the world does anybody know a good from bad massage?

Don’t get me wrong I’m on your side with this but would you and your compatriots be willing to organize and establish testing and licensing to protect your trade and separate the true professionals from the charlatans?

You run a school for this but fact of the matter is like most equine trades no schooling is necessary to legally operate. Do you find this acceptable?

There are 2 organizations that I’m aware of Equissage? and something else I don’t remember their name anyway last I heard one group was suing the other for various things. I’m sure you’re aware of what I’m talking about. Long story short the 2 groups don’t get along. This must stop. As you can see being too busy fighting amongst yourselves when you got a bigger problem from outside is going to kill you. Just ask the American Indians about that.

As others have told you, you need to come up with a plan and you need to do it pretty fast.
George

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;3049044]
Hey Massage Lady,

As a horseshoer, I can readily admit that standards of my trade have declined in this country. For me to see some of the people that are coming into the trade today gives me the same sick and disgusted feeling one gets when meeting an old sweetheart in a bordello. for this reason I am a staunch advocate of mandatory testing and state licensing. There are many who disagree with me for various reasons but nonetheless I see that a gullible public with money to spend is a big target for unscrupulous people.

Would you also admit that in your trade the same conditions exist but possibly even worse? At least if a horseshoer does a lousy job somebody might notice. How in the world does anybody know a good from bad massage?

Don’t get me wrong I’m on your side with this but would you and your compatriots be willing to organize and establish testing and licensing to protect your trade and separate the true professionals from the charlatans?

You run a school for this but fact of the matter is like most equine trades no schooling is necessary to legally operate. Do you find this acceptable?

There are 2 organizations that I’m aware of Equissage? and something else I don’t remember their name anyway last I heard one group was suing the other for various things. I’m sure you’re aware of what I’m talking about. Long story short the 2 groups don’t get along. This must stop. As you can see being too busy fighting amongst yourselves when you got a bigger problem from outside is going to kill you. Just ask the American Indians about that.

As others have told you, you need to come up with a plan and you need to do it pretty fast.
George[/QUOTE]

The same with horse trainers/barn managers.
Anyone can hang a sign and start training.
Some of those people are really scary, what they do to horses and their clients, because they are completely clueless.
Certification would at least teach them some basics, so the rest of us don’t have to keep closing our eyes and sighting, that is all we can do now.

[redleaflady]

We need to get the laws cahanged in the states that already mandate these services be performed by vets. You can’t license or certify something that is already illegal. Most alternative practioners are not opposed to some sort of testing (at least the legit ones).

As far as postponing or not seeking vet care for an animal in need, all legit practioners I know of will advise that you do seek vet care in many cases. They will try to mke the animal more comfortable until you can get a vet out. As I have stated before, many areas have a shortage of vets. In order to get a vet out on an emergency (even one you have a relationship with) you may have to wait several hours. What is the harm of easing the pain of a colic while waiting for the vet? Many alternative practioners are called in after the horse has been seem by vets. Sometimes many vets. The owner is not satisfied with the lack of answers or solutions that they were given. What does it hurt to seek another viewpoint? I know of a couple horses that were shipped to vet schools for lameness issues. The owners came out with a several thousand dollar bill and an answer like “try him on stall rest and bute for a week and see if he is not any better”. Well, in a week the horse is still lame if not on bute and the vets still can’t come up with a cause. The vets didn’t have any answers so why not try something they may or may not agree with. What does the owner have to lose except more money and generally the bills for the alternative stuff are much less anyway.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=Bluey;3049066]
The same with horse trainers/barn managers.
Anyone can hang a sign and start training.
Some of those people are really scary, what they do to horses and their clients, because they are completely clueless.
Certification would at least teach them some basics, so the rest of us don’t have to keep closing our eyes and sighting, that is all we can do now.[/QUOTE]
Well, here again the British solved that problem too. As I understand it there’s a lot they must go through to become a riding instructors and trainers over there.

I’d certainly not like to see the rigid class structure that exists in that country imported here, but a little common sense regulation in the best interests of the public and especially the horses would be a good thing.
George

[silver2]

We need to assure a MINIMUM standard for all and accountability to someone for the ones that are not on the level, really ignorant or outright crooks.

Absolutely. And that training needs to be based on each specialty as it is for human medicine, and practiced by folks who do it fulltime and are really engaged and not all lumped under the DVM umbrella.

The very fact that they include “energy therapy”, which is essentially faith healing, in their definition of alternative therapies tells me that they have not given a lot of thought to how they will determine if their members are qualified in these modalities. I guess they could ask them if they believe in magic :lol:

Unlike Bluey I have little faith in education and passing state boards actually making people more honest or less likely to be full of BS on occasion but it does give the consumer a recourse to complain. Any anyone really, really incompetent or shady is likely to be de-licensed eventually.

Well, here again the British solved that problem too. As I understand it there’s a lot they must go through to become a riding instructors and trainers over there.

It’s really pretty minimal in terms of the riding and there are scads of awful instructors over there too. The stable management part is extremely valuable though, not least for employers who know everyone they hire has a consistent knowledge base when it comes to horsemanship. I do believe the German rider/trainer/instructor test is far more advanced in the riding department but I’m not really familiar with that program so I don’t know how it applies to riding schools.

[JSwan]

redleaflady -

Aren’t you the same poster that tried to convince us that HR 503 and S 311 including a reference to “soring” meant that we were subject to arrest for merely having a lame horse? A horse with a lost shoe or abscess?

I went and checked - yeah - it’s you. I noticed that when I explained that the reference to soring was taken from already existing federal law, and indeed meant purposefully laming your horse… you failed to post again.

Can I infer from your lack of acknowledgment that you are being more careful to review proposed legislation - or that you merely moved on to another Bill and didn’t bother to actually read it.

[caballus]

Licensing and certification doesn’t the “healer” make … it depends solely on the practitioner. Period.

Caveat emptor.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=caballus;3049193]
Licensing and certification doesn’t the “healer” make … it depends solely on the practitioner. Period.

Caveat emptor.[/QUOTE]
Thats half right. I’ll agree that certification falls short in many ways but licensing does 2 things

1. It eliminates the least common denominator thereby raising standards.

2. It establishes oversight. Those individuals who would bring the trade into disrepute are disciplined and dealt with but more commonly don’t enter the trade in the first place for fear of having to meet a standard.

It’s a win-win situation for everybody involved.

And no I don’t agree with the concept of caveat emptor. If that’s the philosophy you go by you’d get along great with PT Barnum.

George

[MassageLady]

The very fact that they include “energy therapy”, which is essentially faith healing,

This is so far from the truth, it’s not even funny. Right here, you are telling me you have no idea what ‘energy clearing’ is. Unless you do, please do not put out false information about it.

Good example how a little knowledge is dangerous.
First, you didn’t have a way of diagnosing what was wrong, it could have been a kidney stone that was passing and did pass past where it was so painful, or who knows what.
You say it was an UTI? By what proof? Why not a kidney stone, just to add a differential diagnosis that makes more sense than passing your hands over her stopping the pain?
What if it was referred pain from a ruptured appendix and your intervention, thru a placebo effect, was keeping her from proper care that much longer?

I was NOT KEEPING her from getting care…HER DOCTOR WAS! By not seeing her for over a week!! SHE SAID it was a UTI, I’m guessing it was from the hysterical crying when she was trying to pee. I told her to go to an urgent care center! ALL I DID was help with the pain until she could see someone. PERIOD. Now, you want to turn it around and make me the bad guy FOR HELPING RELIEVE HER PAIN. Nope, ain’t happening.

I definitely would want any such alternative practitioners to be certified and licensed, just as beauticians, plumbers, electricians, real estate agents, doctors and lawyers are

Yes, it’s great they have certifications-now the plumbers/electricians can learn how to lower their pants even further so we can see their crack:lol: And with this licensing…I’m sure NOBODY has had a bad haircut either.:winkgrin: And let’s not get started on the lawyers.

There are 2 organizations that I’m aware of Equissage?

Equissage is a School, and Mary has her own organization-the IAAMT, there is also the IAAMB-I’m guessing that is what you are talking about.

How in the world does anybody know a good from bad massage?

Well…to give you some info:
They should always do a full body massage-it should take 45-60min each time. There should be no ‘spot massages’ as horses compensate too much.
Usually after the first massage, the horse will be sore.:yes: I inform people of this because they will get upset if not…yet the 2nd day, they will be much better.
If someone tells you (on an extremely sore horse)that they can make it better in one massage, they are full of horse pucky. Most spasms and tight muscles usually take 2-3 massages to get better and softer.
If the horse isn’t better after 3 massages, then there is something else going on and other things should be addressed.

Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
The same with horse trainers/barn managers.
Anyone can hang a sign and start training.

Yes, in fact, a bad trainer/instructor can do alot more damage to a horse than any massage therapist.:yes: And there are no certifications involved, ever.

[Bluey]

—“I was NOT KEEPING her from getting care…HER DOCTOR WAS! By not seeing her for over a week!! SHE SAID it was a UTI, I’m guessing it was from the hysterical crying when she was trying to pee. I told her to go to an urgent care center! ALL I DID was help with the pain until she could see someone. PERIOD. Now, you want to turn it around and make me the bad guy FOR HELPING RELIEVE HER PAIN. Nope, ain’t happening.”—

You didn’t, or choose not to understand what I was saying about your example, that she needed proper care, not laying of hands, because YOU are not a diagnostician.
If she had an UTI, something you didn’t really knew, or a clearly broken arm and you could see that, she needed MEDICAL attention, not “laying of hands to reduce her pain and was still fine some days later”.

Now, for what you say now, I do understand you are saying that all you did is lay hands, she felt better and each of you went your merry way.
That is not the way it sounded to me before, but that you tended medically to her, not with traditional medicine, but with your alternative medicine.
That is what I found objectionable in that situation, that clearly needed a Dr.

—“Yes, in fact, a bad trainer/instructor can do alot more damage to a horse than any massage therapist. And there are no certifications involved, ever.”—

And many are trying to change that, it just takes time.
In alternative medicine, the time is now, evidently, to certify and license those practicing it and that is good for them and the public, even if those in that field don’t like it.

[caballus]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;3049233]

And no I don’t agree with the concept of caveat emptor. If that’s the philosophy you go by you’d get along great with PT Barnum.

George[/QUOTE] Well, George, after living long enough and trusting enough because there were initials after the name I’ve gotten to the point of yes, caveat emptor. Especially when it comes to animals who cannot speak for themselves. I do my research, I get my references and I make my choices based on what I feel is the best for my horses. We all deserve that ‘RIGHT’ here in America - ummmmm, “Land of the Free”. The way things are going, though, that freedom is quickly being taken away and I’m not the only one who resents it BIG time …

[MassageLady]

Now, for what you say now, I do understand you are saying that all you did is lay hands, she felt better and each of you went your merry way.
That is not the way it sounded to me before, but that you tended medically to her, not with traditional medicine, but with your alternative medicine.
That is what I found objectionable in that situation, that clearly needed a Dr.

It’s what I said before…I met her in a bathroom at the track!:lol: I don’t even know her name. I never told her to not go to the doctor, her doctor wouldn’t even call in anything for the poor girl! :no:

In alternative medicine, the time is now, evidently, to certify and license those practicing it and that is good for them and the public, even if those in that field don’t like it.

Who will do the teaching? Who will do the licensing? Since many Vets dont’ agree with many of our ‘healing’ modalities…how are they going to teach us? Would it be those who have been doing it all along? Those who are already certified, and working…those with a ton of knowledge and know their craft front and back-or someone who just took a short course…yet has the initials DVM after their name?

[Bluey]

—“Who will do the teaching? Who will do the licensing? Since many Vets dont’ agree with many of our ‘healing’ modalities…how are they going to teach us? Would it be those who have been doing it all along? Those who are already certified, and working…those with a ton of knowledge and know their craft front and back-or someone who just took a short course…yet has the initials DVM after their name?”—

That is for those involved with that to figure out.
I would not want someone that dosen’t know anything about training horses, running a stable and teaching riders to decide how to do it for our certification.
There are adequate models of riding instructor programs in other places that, with a little modification, could be applied here, at least for the basics of horse care and training.

I agree that it would be harder in alternative medicine, because it is very diverse and controversial in itself.

My guess would be that if the veterinary association is getting involved in the regulation of alternative practices, that may be because those are involved in the care of animals, that is their domain.

---

[redleaflady]

[QUOTE=J Swan;3049169]
redleaflady -

Aren’t you the same poster that tried to convince us that HR 503 and S 311 including a reference to “soring” meant that we were subject to arrest for merely having a lame horse? A horse with a lost shoe or abscess?

I went and checked - yeah - it’s you. I noticed that when I explained that the reference to soring was taken from already existing federal law, and indeed meant purposefully laming your horse… you failed to post again.

Can I infer from your lack of acknowledgment that you are being more careful to review proposed legislation - or that you merely moved on to another Bill and didn’t bother to actually read it.[/QUOTE]

Than why has this topic surfaced in sport horse disciplines and the AQHA. Their “training” practices do not include soring horses such as in the Saddlebreds and Walking horses.

[redleaflady]

[QUOTE=caballus;3049320]
Well, George, after living long enough and trusting enough because there were initials after the name I’ve gotten to the point of yes, caveat emptor. Especially when it comes to animals who cannot speak for themselves. I do my research, I get my references and I make my choices based on what I feel is the best for my horses. We all deserve that ‘RIGHT’ here in America - ummmmm, “Land of the Free”. The way things are going, though, that freedom is quickly being taken away and I’m not the only one who resents it BIG time …[/QUOTE]

You got it!!! it is about our freedoms.

[JSwan]

Evidently the people posting on those forums are unable to read as well. I don’t know.

What I do know is that the information you posted is 100% inaccurate. And if you are getting your information on other legislation from the same, or similar source, it is also likely to be inaccurate.

Don’t get me wrong - I love a good conspiracy theory and I’m not a fan of Big Government.

However, I can also analyze legislation and I can read. And I know I’m right.

[MistyBlue]

Saddlebreds aren’t sored.

[redleaflady]

[QUOTE=MassageLady;3049352]

Who will do the teaching? Who will do the licensing? Since many Vets dont’ agree with many of our ‘healing’ modalities…how are they going to teach us? Would it be those who have been doing it all along? Those who are already certified, and working…those with a ton of knowledge and know their craft front and back-or someone who just took a short course…yet has the initials DVM after their name?[/QUOTE]

That is the point here. The vets can’t possible have the knowledge in every area. Who taught the vets modern dentistry and chiropratics in the first place? It was lay people. In human medicine a DC is not regulated by the MD’s. Why should this take place in the vet industry.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=caballus;3049320]
Well, George, after living long enough and trusting enough because there were initials after the name I’ve gotten to the point of yes, caveat emptor. Especially when it comes to animals who cannot speak for themselves. I do my research, I get my references and I make my choices based on what I feel is the best for my horses. We all deserve that ‘RIGHT’ here in America - ummmmm, “Land of the Free”. The way things are going, though, that freedom is quickly being taken away and I’m not the only one who resents it BIG time …[/QUOTE] Yeah, I can agree with you about titles and letters after the name. That was one of many issues I had with AFA. Their hanging their labels on people without consent. My mother’s family hailed from Cork, Limerick, and Tipperarry. Believe me when I tell you there will never be any titles in this house.

That however is dealing with certification. Licensing is a whole nuther matter and completely different.

What makes you think favorable legislation to protect the integrity of your trade makes you less free? I hear this from horseshoers too. They have no problem buying a license to drive a car (in the interest of public safety) They have no problem buying a license to catch fish, yet as soon as the thought of a license to protect their trade comes up they scream like their about to be sent to a gulag. Just what’s up with that?
George

[JSwan]

@redleaflady;3049506

Why should this take place in the vet industry.

Because the laypeople are too busy arguing on the internet instead of forming associations and acting as a unified voice.

It’s not rocket science.