Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

[silver2]

RAyers if large animal vets are raking in the cash in your neck of the woods, please tell me where you live so I can pass it on to my 10 or 12 firends who are large animal vets and can barely pay their loans. I went to UC Davis so I know a lot of vets and 90% of them have to take on small animal work or factory farm work to make ends meet. Horses alone are a money loser. And this is one of the wealthiest states in the country.

Deltawave- you are the only person who has brought up total de-regulation so hopefully we can drop that as it is not productive to imply it is the alternative to only allowing vets to “work on” horses. Again, you are the only one to bring this up. An example: here in CA a massage therapist for horses has to have a full regular massage therapist license (at least 2 years of full time school, more for more specialties) and additional animal training. They have to be accredited, licensed and pay annual fees. In addition many of them that I know have obtained additional certs from private institutions like the Meagher one. Under this legislation vets are not even held to the same standard! Even if they wanted to be a licensed therapist how could they afford 2-4 additional years of school with loans topping 100K? Not to mention that we don’t require human therapists to adhere to the same standards. It’s craziness.

My understanding of this legislation is that is has also been supported by animal rights groups in several states as a way to enforce standards of animal care. Not really something I can get behind either.

[StorybrookeFarms]

[QUOTE=Lookout;3042126]
who’s going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?[/QUOTE]

AMEN!!!

[deltawave]

Gotcha, nobody wants deregulation. Sorry.

What, then, EXACTLY, are you all proposing, other than panic and outrage? What, PRECISELY, should alternative practitioners DO about this unwanted bit of legislation. What, SPECIFICALLY, are practitioners offering as a viable alternative?

Tilting at windmills is unproductive. We can bemoan the fact that we don’t understand why a certain disease exists and the fact that we can’t prevent it, or we can try to treat it with the tools we have at hand. I tend to be a realist–nope, I don’t have a solution to a problem, but I have these tools I can use to help things “be better”. That works better for me personally than wringing my hands over things we don’t fully comprehend or have control over. So in this scenario, wherein I AGREE that having only vets able to provide alternative therapies is wrongheaded, I don’t see much point in calling for everyone to “WAKE UP” unless there is a PLAN or an ALTERNATIVE to the unacceptable status quo. Which, to me, seems to be the burden of the practitioners themselves, not the horse owners.

[silver2]

They shouldn’t have to do anything in the states where they are ALREADY LICENSED to perform the work. Meaning they have done the requisite training, paid their fees to an organization and are accredited and must adhere to professional standards.

This legislation will put people who legally performing a job they are trained and licensed to do out of business. It will also make them felons.

I do not know why this is so hard to understand?

[deltawave]

Is the licensing uniform, or variable from place to place?

Is licensing required for practicing herbal medicine? How about all the other, less “mainstream” (if you’ll pardon the term) alternative practices like energy field balancing, crystals, detoxifying and the like? I got no beef with acupuncturists, chiros, dentistry, massage, even homeopathy as more or less “standardized” practices. But some of the more “out there” techniques–are they licensed, really? I find that incredible.

[Lookout]

@deltawave;3043219

Is the licensing uniform, or variable from place to place?

Is licensing required for practicing herbal medicine? How about all the other, less “mainstream” (if you’ll pardon the term) alternative practices like energy field balancing, crystals, detoxifying and the like? I got no beef with acupuncturists, chiros, dentistry, massage, even homeopathy as more or less “standardized” practices. But some of the more “out there” techniques–are they licensed, really? I find that incredible.

The AVMA isn’t making this distinction, why are you? Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?
As to the ‘burden’ being on the practitioners - how hard is it to understand that their profession has been outlawed? So, from what position do they undertake this burden? And by so doing identify themselves as a scofflaw?

[redleaflady]

Whether people are licensed or not, usually the consumer will sort it out. Some of these practitioners are not licensed but have a proven track record of helping horses. Face it, the horse industry is very small. Those that are not effective will not be in business very long. As in horse shoeing and Vet medicine, if someone is certified or licensed and goes into practice, they will do their own style and what they believe is effective. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. The consumer will define who has a job or not.

As far as action is concerned, we need to be aware of the proposed legislation at the state and federal level. When these types of regulations appear, we as horse owners and horse professionals need to contact the appropriate congressmen or senators. A lot of the time, they try to sneek these types of bills in quickly and quietly. Organizations can be set up in the states that work toward getting these laws changed or keeping them from being passed. Florida has done that with FAAOR. The web site is FAAOR.ORG. FAAOR has gotten the wording of some laws changed to allow a bit of a grey area. They need to go much further. I think this will not be completely resolved until someone gets prosecuted and takes the case to the US Supreme Court to set a precident. IF this happens there needs to be the financial backing from the horse owners, practitioners, and other equine organizations.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’m on the side of not wanting regulation. It is my horse, and I make the decisions what is best for it. I have a wonderful - did I say wonderful - vet, but I don’t ask him to do teeth. There was an excellent practioner for teeth here - he was driven out of the province
because two vets stood up against the practice of having non-vets do teeth. Surely a political, protectionist stance. I rather feel that if a person went to college to learn how to decorate cakes, they would not get good at it until they had had years of practice. Horse vets just don’t spend that much time on teeth usually. Same as with massage, some have the feel, some don’t. A person is followed by their reputation. Makes me so mad when our freedom of choice is removed.

[silver2]

Is the licensing uniform, or variable from place to place?

As far as I know all professional licensing is handled at the state level for all professions, not just horse-related.

Private accreditations from institutions are obviously handled more like college degrees but, at least in CA, do not override the state licensing requirements.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=deltawave;3042146]
The “not fake” practitioners may have to organize themselves, begin a process of regulation, accreditation, and credentialing just like every other professional who “cares for” someone or something. These same processes are designed to protect the consumer from lousy vets, hairdressers, acupuncturists and anything else. Is the system perfect? No, but it beats no system at all, wherein anyone with a half-baked idea and a good sales pitch can set themselves up as a “practitioner”. The brilliant and the competent can no more be above the rules than are the crackpots and the crooks.[/QUOTE] Good idea, as you know I’m a strong advocate of horseshoer licensing.

Problem with the vet practice acts is that it’s a power grab aimed mainly at horse dentists. I’ve seen them arrested and fined for doing their trades.

These changes in law need to be opposed wherever their proposed and efforts need to be made to overturn them where they’ve been passed.
George

[JSwan]

The consumer is indeed protected from lousy vets.

Because with lousy vets, there is a method, to censure or suspend or revoke licenses.

And it happens.

I actually don’t have any problem with massage therapy, or other modalities. But I think you folks want to have your cake and eat it too. You want total freedom, without any oversight, regulation, or credentials, to go out and basically practice veterinary medicine. With no way for the public to verify for themselves if you meet basic requirements in terms of education, certification, or professional code of ethics.

If you want to be treated as professionals, then take steps to become a profession. Real professions that are organized, have codes of ethics, continuing education, and ability to speak up for yourselves in the legislature.

That’s not unreasonable.

Paralegals did it, RNs did it - and now it’s your turn. You can either act like the professionals you claim to be, or cling tightly to the persecution complex and be regulated out of existence.

I’d have more confidence in hiring equine dentists and other folks if I could verify that they haven’t harmed any horses. I realize I’m painting this with a rather broad brush - as each occupation has its own challenges. But generally, there are a lot of other occupations that had to go through the same angst as you guys. They managed to get through it and become true professionals; given the same respect as an individual profession/career as any other. I have no doubt y’all can do the same thing.

[deltawave]

Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?

Surely I am allowed to decide what I consider important and what I consider trivial? I am wondering where licensing falls in the realm of ultra-alternative practitioners such as herbalists, crystal therapists, and the like. I think these are areas that are most likely to be dubious in terms of mis-practice and mal-practice and would love to know how that industry is regulated.

[JHUshoer20]

@J Swan;3042605

Because you’re not organized. There is an incredible benefit to establishing yourself as a legitimate profession, including forming a guild or association, licensing, dues, code of ethics, and criteria for membership.

Exactly,
Alternative practicioners also hoof trimmers take a look at my signature line. Click on the page for Allied Equine Trades. We have room for everybody who works with horses in any capacity.

In my state we had an Amishman prosecuted for gelding a horse. This problem is very real.
George

[Lookout]

@deltawave;3043434

Surely I am allowed to decide what I consider important and what I consider trivial? I am wondering where licensing falls in the realm of ultra-alternative practitioners such as herbalists, crystal therapists, and the like. I think these are areas that are most likely to be dubious in terms of mis-practice and mal-practice and would love to know how that industry is regulated.

Sure you can decide whatever you want, and you do, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion isn’t about licensing.

[Lookout]

@J Swan;3043429

The consumer is indeed protected from lousy vets.

Because with lousy vets, there is a method, to censure or suspend or revoke licenses.

And it happens.

Then other alternative practitioners should be the ones regulating themselves, just like vets. It’s no more reasonable for vets to regulate other professions than it is for herbalists to regulate vets. There are organizations in place for protection of consumers, but vets think it’s their job to save the world from charlatans?

But I think you folks want to have your cake and eat it too. You want total freedom, without any oversight, regulation, or credentials, to go out and basically practice veterinary medicine. With no way for the public to verify for themselves if you meet basic requirements in terms of education, certification, or professional code of ethics.

I don’t know who you’re talking to but I don’t know anyone that wants that.

Paralegals did it, RNs did it - and now it’s your turn. You can either act like the professionals you claim to be, or cling tightly to the persecution complex and be regulated out of existence.

Newsflash - already happened.

[Tamara_in_TN]

@redleaflady;3043274

Whether people are licensed or not, usually the consumer will sort it out. Some of these practitioners are not licensed but have a proven track record of helping horses. Face it, the horse industry is very small. Those that are not effective will not be in business very long. .

                        I would have to disagree....there is a dressage trainer type that I know that about every 5 years moves to  new state and cheats a whole new bunch of well heeled and ignorant clients...another touts "anti soring crusader " as a way to suck people pocketbooks to them....

             as the average horse owner is only in for a "five year tour" it's easy to fleece a whole new pen of sheep in another part of the country...:winkgrin:

[JSwan]

It hasn’t happened everywhere, and it’s a subject of interest to me. (as a horse owner and advocate.) Also, the “grant” I mentioned was for veterinary students. As Tamara noted, large animal medicine is largely comprised of people who have to spend all day doing some pretty hard work in harsh conditions. Incentives are offered to attract people to the profession.

Again, you’re just going through what other professions went through. You may believe that vets should not regulate you, and maybe you are right. It’s certainly not necessary for them to.

But since the veterinary profession is already well established, organized and properly regulated, that’s what you have to work with. They’re the ones holding the cards right now.

The legal and medical professions are the same way. Most certainly the stakes were higher for those professions; and yet, various tasks/occupations that were once the sole purview of the attorney and physician have become entirely new professions. In and of their own right.

I really don’t see a reason why the dentists and horseshoers and whatnot can’t go through that same process. If legal and medical laypeople can do it - why not y’all? For folks that are handling potentially dangerous equipment - good Lord - of course there needs to be some sort of oversight.

Where I live, the folks who are arguing against regulation/licensing the loudest are the ones who have the least amount of credibility. Though I know that’s not the case across the board, those folks really make everyone look bad.

I wish all of you the best of luck.

[Lookout]

@J Swan;3043547

Where I live, the folks who are arguing against regulation/licensing the loudest are the ones who have the least amount of credibility. Though I know that’s not the case across the board, those folks really make everyone look bad.

As has been stated repeatedly in this thread with examples, there are professions that have difficult and continuing licensing requirements. It DOESN’T MATTER. As far as the veterinary practice act is concernced, they’re all the same, whether dentist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, herbalist, aromatherapist, or animal communicator.
I don’t know who is arguing against regulation/licensing but again, it doesn’t make any difference.

[JSwan]

@Lookout;3043567

As has been stated repeatedly in this thread with examples, there are professions that have difficult and continuing licensing requirements. It DOESN’T MATTER. As far as the veterinary practice act is concernced, they’re all the same, whether dentist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, aromatherapist, or animal communicator.
I don’t know who is arguing against regulation/licensing but again, it doesn’t make any difference.

It does matter, and it does make a difference. Because these professions have yet to organize and establish themselves as an entity capable of self regulation, they are unable to advocate for themselves in the legislature. Becoming such an entity takes time and a great deal of leadership at the local/state level.

Again, I’ll state that the folks who are vociferous in their opinion that the veterinary community is out to get them - are the ones unable to withstand scrutiny.

[Ghazzu]

@Lookout;3042126

who’s going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?

Last time I checked, there were boards of registration (possible variation in names depending on the state) who were charged with just that very mission.