Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

[cyberbay]

Maybe I missed the OP’s point? Sorry, maybe I didn’t read closely enough, but I thought she said that these alt practitioners would now have to be a vet in order to practice these modalities.

Are the states that offer licensing going to rescind that licensing and make those practitioners, if they want to do their line of work, become an employee of a vet practice?

So, if this is true, is the next best step to get mandatory licensing in place for these practitioners, to protect them from ‘predators’?

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=cyberbay;3044023]

Are the states that offer licensing going to rescind that licensing and make those practitioners, if they want to do their line of work, become an employee of a vet practice?

So, if this is true, is the next best step to get mandatory licensing in place for these practitioners, to protect them from ‘predators’?[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge there is no licensing for any of these things in any state outside of pari-mutual jurisdictions. And as I said because of the vet practice acts in NY and PA people of those occupations can no longer be licensed unless their working for a vet.

Horseshoers were licensed in the State of Illinois from about 1915 intil the early 1980’s. During that time it worked great there as far as ensuring only competent horseshoers were able to serve the public and none of us ever saw a badly shod horse come out of Illinois. It was a good law that should have spread to other states.

Now unbeknownst to most people no schooling, training, testing, or licensing is required of horseshoers in any state. We are the only people I can think of who work with live tissue that have nothing in the way of testing.
George

[Lookout]

@J Swan;3044017

We all have to pay attention. I know a lot of this stuff seems like David and Goliath - but at the state level, there really is an opportunity for us to advocate for ourselves. Whether we’re a farrier, massage therapist - it doesn’t matter. While I personally loathe politics, I make it a point to know exactly who is doing what to whom in our legislature. (on the issues that are important to me)

Maybe in your state. As a resident of one of the largest and most populous states, not to mention famously the most corrupt, the possibility of my meeting for coffee with my state legislator is about as likely as meeting with the Dalai Lama. Not without bearing the requisite gifts, which I do not have. Not to mention that getting there and back alone would be an 8 hr trip. The new governor elected in the last election rode to his victory on the promise of change and dealing with these corrupt legislators and he has gotten NONE of his agenda passed. There are too many ingrained special interests in the pockets of these ‘legislators’. The scale would be similar to something like the slaughter bill or the mustang bill and look how much trouble those keep having getting passed. What law did you get changed by meeting for coffee with your legislator - did you get a stop sign replaced with a traffic light? The possibility of my getting a law changed or passed is about as likely as meeting with Jesus Christ.

[pandorasboxx]

@cyberbay;3044023

Maybe I missed the OP’s point? Sorry, maybe I didn’t read closely enough, but I thought she said that these alt practitioners would now have to be a vet in order to practice these modalities.

My guess it may be that some versions would allow practioners of alternative modalties to be under the supervision of a veterinarian, rather than be a vet. Therefore, those who work for the vet practice would fall within the legal constraints.

The skincare clinic I use is run by a physician. However, many of the offered services are done by a licensed aethestician or a nurse. No doctor is usually in the room but is “technically” overseeing the procedures.

[silver2]

To my knowledge there is no licensing for any of these things in any state outside of pari-mutual jurisdictions

This is not true. In CA you must be trained licensed to do horse massage. In florida to be a dentist etc. etc. etc. read the numerous examples posted in the thread.

Again, people who have have been successfully running legal businesses for YEARS are now felons. All by the passing of a special interest law.

An analogy for human medicine would be if someone passed a law that said all masseuses had to be MDs. Thousands of massage therapists would be out of work or forced to work illegally. That would also suck for me as a consumer, because I get a bimonthly massage for $60 a pop. I pay my GP aout $100 to see me for 8 minutes, imagine what a massage by an MD would cost? $1000?

[Appassionato]

No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?

FWIW, I’m for certification of various “professions.” As deltawave mentioned, there are too many folks out there that are hacks.

[EqTrainer]

@silver2;3044077

This is not true. In CA you must be trained licensed to do horse massage. In florida to be a dentist etc. etc. etc. read the numerous examples posted in the thread.

Again, people who have have been successfully running legal businesses for YEARS are now felons. All by the passing of a special interest law.

An analogy for human medicine would be if someone passed a law that said all masseuses had to be MDs. Thousands of massage therapists would be out of work or forced to work illegally. That would also suck for me as a consumer, because I get a bimonthly massage for $60 a pop. I pay my GP aout $100 to see me for 8 minutes, imagine what a massage by an MD would cost? $1000?

EXACTLY. Caring for a horse well is already very expensive. I figure once the vets add in their markup for “supervising to be sure we, the consumer, aren’t being ripped off :lol:” most people will no longer be able to afford to get their horse chiro’d, massaged or accupunctured. As usual, the horse will suffer, the wealthy will be able to maintain what they already have and the other wealthies will get wealthier off of them.

Not to mention, if they can get the farriers controlled the same way, you will have to haul your horse to them to have them done. Again, who can afford to do this? Only the very wealthy.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=Appassionato;3044090]
No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?

FWIW, I’m for certification of various “professions.” As deltawave mentioned, there are too many folks out there that are hacks.[/QUOTE]

Certification at least as far as horseshoers go has proven itself to be a failure. It is a title that clubs bestow upon themselves and has no legal standing. It was brought about as a compromise measure to derail the idea of licensing.

It did do that but no demand for certified horseshoers has ever been or ever will be created by it.

Compulsory testing and licensing is the way to go. Just as I wouldn’t want to fly with an untested, unlicensed pilot, or be treated by an untested, unlicensed doctor, I think people’s horses ought to be afforded the same protections.
George

[JSwan]

@Lookout;3044058

What law did you get changed by meeting for coffee with your legislator - did you get a stop sign replaced with a traffic light? The possibility of my getting a law changed or passed is about as likely as meeting with Jesus Christ.

Bravo, Lookout.

You have the bad taste to respond to a compliment and attempt to help with a personal insult. Not that I care, mind you. But it is in very poor taste.

[Appassionato]

Being very honest here EqTrainer, what makes you think you will fail (not just you, others that trim other horses and etc.)? I have to ask because we took Bo up one week after Bo’s hinds were trimmed by Michelel; Jaye asked how long it had been since his hinds were trimmed (we try to do within a week of fronts being shod for Bo’s comfort)…I found this strange since I thought they looked great, and Michele answered him, “Saturday a week ago.” He nodded his head in approvement and said, “That’s good work.” I adore and am thankful for my friend Michele, but Jaye said very confidently that she did nice work. I would just bet you could too. is certification/liscensing that frightening? I have to ask, because as you know there are so many hacks out there. I’m not arguing with you, actually the opposite: I have faith in you. And I don’t have much faith in people and hooves. That’s really hard-earned with me, as you already know.

[quiet5]

Well put–after all, before 1970, no one heard of acupuncture for humans, let alone equines (at least here in CA --the supposed birthplace of the crack-pot lifestyle). In the early 1970s, the more active acupuncturists worked with some state representatives to get laws on the books that outlined the licensure of that practice. That should happen for these other alt-care therapies…

[QUOTE=deltawave;3042146]
The “not fake” practitioners may have to organize themselves, begin a process of regulation, accreditation, and credentialing just like every other professional who “cares for” someone or something. These same processes are designed to protect the consumer from lousy vets, hairdressers, acupuncturists and anything else. Is the system perfect? No, but it beats no system at all, wherein anyone with a half-baked idea and a good sales pitch can set themselves up as a “practitioner”. The brilliant and the competent can no more be above the rules than are the crackpots and the crooks.[/QUOTE]

[Appassionato]

@JHUshoer20;3044110

Certification at least as far as horseshoers go has proven itself to be a failure. It is a title that clubs bestow upon themselves and has no legal standing. It was brought about as a compromise measure to derail the idea of licensing.

It did do that but no demand for certified horseshoers has ever been or ever will be created by it.

Compulsory testing and licensing is the way to go. Just as I wouldn’t want to fly with an untested, unlicensed pilot, or be treated by an untested, unlicensed doctor, I think people’s horses ought to be afforded the same protections.
George

Mr. Geist, if it’s the association I’m thinking of, you’re correct! From my given understandings as a former pre-med (now looking elsewhere, med school doesn’t feel right at this time), liscensing for doctors is still pretty intense. That’s why I questioned the masseuses vs. MDs comparison. I know what it takes just to get IN to med school…massage isn’t as hard. Sorry, but true.

But, I do hear your argument. And agree! The certification/liscensing has to mean something. Furthermore, stiffer penalties on horse owners providing less than average care for their animals. I’m not talking about a horse without a mark on it in a pasture fenced in barbed wire, either. I’m talking about starvation (good luck reporting that in my area) as well as true abuse/neglect in many other forms. Granted, I’m going to hear my case might have been an abuse case and fine. but under a vet’s care? When that’s the argument to start with? vets actually knowing something about something? And I’ve been to bad vets…we all have…

[MistyBlue]

We want to help the animals get better…plain and simple. Then we get this slapped in our faces! The vets reaching over and grabbing up what we have been doing for years and saying ‘only they’re allowed to do it now’. When they haven’t studied it, nor do they plan on studying it!
Those that don’t use it, fine…but those that do are having their choice taken away by money grubbing people.

Not to quibble but this seems a bit odd seeing as on your website you offer a 6 day course for $900 and at the end of 6 short days…the student is a certified equine masage therapist. And the first day consists of teaching a newbie who’s obviously not used to horses how to appraoch and lead a horse. Correct me if I’m wrong in this assumption…but is this to mean that someone so new to horses that they have to be taught how to appraoch and lead a horse…how to properly wrap a horse leg, etc will be actually certified to charge people as a massage therapist? And the current certification is fine? And the vets are money grubbing? :eek:
FWIW…I know at least 5 vets in my state that are licensed vets and do chiro, massage, acupuncture and other holistic practices. I have yet to meet a single vet who can’t properly float teeth. And also do equine dental surgery.
Do I want someone who took a few day or few week course doing anything at all to my horse? Hell no. Not trimming feet. Not doing dental. Not adjusting them or massaging them. I want an actual vet who can then address any possible issues or side effects. I think it’s a far better idea to pressure vets to learn to perform the holistic services than to continue to allow the plethora of really bad and really dangerous uneducated hacks out there who hang up a shingle and pronounce themselves open for business. On this BB we’re far too used to the more savvy and experienced horse folks…because that’s what this BB is heavily populated by. The VAST majority or horse owners out there in this country are not on this BB and many are very casual owners. They will not think twice about saving income by calling Uncle Bob’s Tooth Yankers or Aunt Patty’s Massage With Happy Ending…who charge 1/8 of what a vet will and have a very high chance of injuring their horse badly due to lack of education and experience.
The vets are against many of the “certified” practices because they know these certifications take only a few days and are hardly able to turn out experienced safe practitioners in that time and are probably sick of owners then needing them out ASAP to fix Thunder after some hack screwed him up.
Sure…there are plenty of good holistic practitioners out there. Unfortunately there are 10x that amount of crappy morons doing more harm than good. If this is what it takes to get rid of all those bad ones…then so be it. It’s for the greater good. And all horse folks should agree that what helps the most horses might be a little more important than their own problems with this. Those of you good ones aren’t seeing the vast numbers of bad ones and the horses they mess up…it’s best for horses all around.
And FWIW…I lobby. I do have coffee and I do go to meetings and I do all that fun lobbying stuff. (okay, it’s not really fun) I’m not getting paid at all for it. The percentage of people lobbying that make millions are about 1-2% of them. The rest of us do what we think is right and work towards it because we’re damn sick and tired of the whining complainers who’d rather crab online about it rather than getting off their duffs and doing something about it. And yes…my lobbying has made changes. Bigger ones than street signs. That have saved animals and made state law changes. So go out and learn to lobby. I’m not saying go try taking on OPEC :winkgrin:…but for whatever is important to you…one person can indeed make changes. :yes:

[JSwan]

As usual, Mistyblue, you said what I could not manage to spit out. And with much more elegance.

[Appassionato]

Agreed with MistyBlue as well!

[JHUshoer20]

I think is important to note the main aim of this. It is at horse dentists.

It was not that long ago that many if not most vets referred you to a dentist for dental work. Mainly because most were better at it being specialists. Secondly that was too much like manual labor to a vet.

Now they can more easily do it with power floats. In addition, a lousy dentist can wreak a lot of havoc with a power float thus it was easy for vets to create the perception that this was needed.

Horseshoers have been temporarily excluded from these laws because we’re the only ones who will make any noise. Other trades are too small and disorganized to matter. My attempts to get horseshoers to defend other trades has fallen on deaf ears.

Eventually they’ll come for us and nobody will be left to speak. I firmly believe we’re what their after. It would be profitable enough to arouse anybody’s greed.
George

[silver2]

No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?

No they can’t. That’s my POINT. Please re-read for comprehension.

[Appassionato]

@silver2;3044198

No they can’t. That’s my POINT. Please re-read for comprehension.

I should read for comprehension??? You’re kidding, right?

[MistyBlue]

FWIW George…I don’t think farriers should be included in this. I do think all people working on horse feet have to be extensively certified with continuing education requirements and testing though. :yes:
But…I don’t know a single vet who wants to be in the farrier business too. They don’t want to shoe our horses…they barely have time to keep up with the injuries and illnesses.
My farrier is a CJF…he’s wonderful at what he does and knows as much (if not more) about lameness and mechanics of the hoof than any vet I know. Actually…you probably have chatted with him a time or two on the horseshoe forums.

[Appassionato]

@JHUshoer20

It was not that long ago that many if not most vets referred you to a dentist for dental work. Mainly because most were better at it being specialists. Secondly that was too much like manual labor to a vet.

Now they can more easily do it with power floats. In addition, a lousy dentist can wreak a lot of havoc with a power float thus it was easy for vets to create the perception that this was needed.

I miss having an equine dentist for my horse! And you are right, a hack of any kind is that, a hack.

@JHUshoer20

Horseshoers have been temporarily excluded from these laws because we’re the only ones who will make any noise. Other trades are too small and disorganized to matter. My attempts to get horseshoers to defend other trades has fallen on deaf ears.

Not necessarily. I’ve only spoken to a few farriers, though.

@JHUshoer20

Eventually they’ll come for us and nobody will be left to speak. I firmly believe we’re what their after. It would be profitable enough to arouse anybody’s greed.

You’ll have a job again soon if such were to happen. Anyone that trims a hoof will agree it’s harder work than it appears. My guy? HARD work. :winkgrin: