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Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

Horse Care
#101

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;3044211]
FWIW George…I don’t think farriers should be included in this. I do think all people working on horse feet have to be extensively certified with continuing education requirements and testing though. :yes: [/QUOTE] On that we’re in agreement. Difference being I’m for mandatory testing and licensing. Voluntary certification that most horse owners don’t care about just doesn’t cut it.

But…I don’t know a single vet who wants to be in the farrier business too. They don’t want to shoe our horses…they barely have time to keep up with the injuries and illnesses.
Never said they did. I doubt that they’d turn down the scheduling and booking end of it though

My farrier is a CJF…he’s wonderful at what he does and knows as much (if not more) about lameness and mechanics of the hoof than any vet I know. Actually…you probably have chatted with him a time or two on the horseshoe forums.

If he goes on there I probably have.
George

#102

Agreed, except I think farriers should be certified/liscensed. Mostly because of what I have been through.

#103

In that respect, I’m all for revoking ownership of horses. Callous as that may seem, I also have my reasons. Lord knows I’m willing to pay for my trimmer of Bo’s hinds certification/liscensing. Why aren’t others? Oh wait, they are probably being cheap again…hmmm…:winkgrin:

#104

[QUOTE=Appassionato;3044234]
In that respect, I’m all for revoking ownership of horses. Callous as that may seem, I also have my reasons. Lord knows I’m willing to pay for my trimmer of Bo’s hinds certification/liscensing. Why aren’t others? Oh wait, they are probably being cheap again…hmmm…:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Well, let me put it this way,
In 28 years of doing this for other people I’ve been asked if I was certified once. Happened to be by a girl that had been to horseshoeing school. ONE TIME!!!

As far as everybody else there are only 2 questions:

  1. What do you cost?
  2. When can you get here?

Now, assuming all of you have jobs didn’t all of your employers demand some kind of credentials when you all got hired?

Why as our employers do you not demand it of us? Most of you when in need of a horseshoer ask your friends who their using and thats about all the criteria you look for. Any of you ever think of that? Is this a good way to make decisions? Remember what all our mothers told us about doing stuff because our friends did right?

This by the way is the same little spiel I give to riding clubs and youth groups when I talk to them. It is up to you the owners to demand better. As I said on the other thread you never hear Brits complaining about horseshoers do you?

If any licensing is ever to come about it will require active participation of horse owners.
George

#105

Believe it or not, the guy that foundered Bo claimed to be a CJF…he wasn’t. I’m ashamed of the fact but I admit for everyone else’s sake: in hopes that horse owners will “wake up.”

Lots of hacks are expensive. Ask me how I know. :winkgrin:

But my employers didn’t trust me on claimed credentials; they checked. Might just be my luck.

Agreed! You’re preaching to the choir!

Actually…I have. I can’t remember if it was here or horseshoes. But it’s less over there…could it be cultural not to question? I really don’t know what’s all involved. Americans won’t ask, but I will. Only because again, what I’ve been through.

Mark my word, I’ll pay for Jaye AND Dave’s myself. Michele too. It means that much to me. I might be the wrong person to ask about certification/liscensing though. :lol:

#106

Because there is no reason to go on and argue and defend my School, I know the students I turn out are fantastic, or they won’t be Certified.

#107

It’s the principal of it… and how it will end up.

But thanks :slight_smile:

#108

I’ll limit my comments by saying that, after reading your rant about underqualified veterinarians, the description of the rigorous training that your certificate holders undergo made wine come out my nose.

#109

Ghazzu, I love you. :smiley:

#110

I just have to know: are you stoned?

Really. What planet are you on?

It’s halfwits like yourself that take in idiots who don’t know better.

Good god almighty, you are seven sheets to stupid.

[QUOTE=MassageLady;3044332]
Yes, that’s true. And this is why-while they need to know how to approach horses, I also teach that they should have a handler for that horse. I also teach on proper placement of tack/common ailments and what causes them/rehab therapies/and 3 days hands on the horses for massage therapy…which btw is MORE than many other schools give in their 5 day class! Nobody else teaches the safety/tack fitting/riding aspect of the possibility of the rider causing the problem. Nobody else teaches any kind of rehab therapy either. The 3 day class also has the people around the horses, I teach them how to be safe while working on them, where to stand, where not to stand, and how to do a full body massage. Where to work where not to work. What a spasm looks and feels like, and soreness in a horse. I keep my classes small so that I can keep a close eye on everyone. No other schools give any of this-and they also accept people with no horse knowledge-and will Certify them. I will only Certify people that I believe will be good enough to do this work! I refuse to send people out there, with MY Certification, doing poor work! If they don’t pass the class, they can come back for free to another. Again, no other school will allow that either.[/QUOTE]

#111

[QUOTE=MassageLady;3043779]
And I know of a vet around here that has no business being one…yet they LICENSED her anyway…you are perfectly welcome to hire her for your horse, since she IS licensed-I guess that means she’s good.:lol:
Were those people Certified? I’m guessing no…just learned on the side somehow.
:yes:[/QUOTE]

Since veterinary school is MUCH more difficult to gain acceptance to than HUMAN medical school - and national/state boards aren’t exactly set up to give a passing score to those who think “veterinary medicine is Cool! I get to play with animals all day!”… Having said that, yes, I have had a run-in with one particular vet that will never touch my horse again, yet others rave about this person. I chalked it up to personality conflict - we are all human after all - and entitled to our feelings.

Just remember, in both human and veterinary medicine - one person graduated first in their class, one graduated last - and yet they are both called “Doctor”.

My point is: Re: Farriers - BIG DEAL if they are licensed or certified. What IS a big deal is the quality of their work. They put their work where their mouth (or more accurately, wallet) is. It is how they make their living. This is coming from a person whose boyfriend is an AFA certified farrier - has been shoeing (mostly therapeutic work) for 18 years. Attends conferences (often more than two/three yearly around the country) to keep up-to-date on new techniques, useful products (if nothing else, just to see what’s out there so he equipped to answer clients’ questions about the new ad they saw in XYZ magazine. If he feels a client’s horse may benefit from something new, then yes, he will try it).

Re: your post following: Please don’t tell me you “certify” people to massage horses after only three days of hands-on work (assuming they pass your test)??? Is an apprenticeship of sorts required? I would personally run far, far away from someone that has only has their hands on a horse under instruction for three days (without other massage experience). I wouldn’t care what certification they had.

Horse owners need to become more educated IMO and look past the fancy certifications etc. and take stock in the quality of the provider’s WORK and genuine CARE for the horse.

Just my 0.02.

Originally Posted by MassageLady
Yes, that’s true. And this is why-while they need to know how to approach horses, I also teach that they should have a handler for that horse. I also teach on proper placement of tack/common ailments and what causes them/rehab therapies/and 3 days hands on the horses for massage therapy…which btw is MORE than many other schools give in their 5 day class! Nobody else teaches the safety/tack fitting/riding aspect of the possibility of the rider causing the problem. Nobody else teaches any kind of rehab therapy either. The 3 day class also has the people around the horses, I teach them how to be safe while working on them, where to stand, where not to stand, and how to do a full body massage. Where to work where not to work. What a spasm looks and feels like, and soreness in a horse. I keep my classes small so that I can keep a close eye on everyone. No other schools give any of this-and they also accept people with no horse knowledge-and will Certify them. I will only Certify people that I believe will be good enough to do this work! I refuse to send people out there, with MY Certification, doing poor work! If they don’t pass the class, they can come back for free to another. Again, no other school will allow that either.

#112

I don’t know you from anybody and am not very active in this discussion but your reply to this massage person was beyond obnoxious and offensive and reflects very poorly on yourself. :no: :o

#113

[QUOTE=Appassionato;3044278]
Believe it or not, the guy that foundered Bo claimed to be a CJF…he wasn’t. I’m ashamed of the fact but I admit for everyone else’s sake: in hopes that horse owners will “wake up.”[/QUOTE]
Another failure of certification. I didn’t used to think of that much but evidently this stuff is happening quite a bit out there. Is nothing that can really be done about it either. If unlicensed in a place where required he’d be looking at big fines and possibly jail time.

Lots of hacks are expensive. Ask me how I know. :winkgrin:

Yeah I know. A good line of BS goes a long way in this trade.

But my employers didn’t trust me on claimed credentials; they checked. Might just be my luck.

Good on them. They did their jobs then.

Actually…I have. I can’t remember if it was here or horseshoes. But it’s less over there…could it be cultural not to question? I really don’t know what’s all involved. Americans won’t ask, but I will. Only because again, what I’ve been through.

Good on you too. If more owners would it would help.

Mark my word, I’ll pay for Jaye AND Dave’s myself. Michele too. It means that much to me. I might be the wrong person to ask about certification/liscensing though. :lol:

As far as licensing goes horseshoers are for it by a large majority. Those who are opposed comprise no more than 10% but are very loud about it thereby cowing everybody else into silence.

Those who lead the charge against it tend to be school owners, manufacturers, suppliers, seems everything but working horseshoers. Answer is obvious. These people have a vested financial interest in having a disgracefully high rate of turnover in the trade. A change in that would adversely affect them.

OTOH certification would have been a good compromise if it would have worked as it should have. As we’ve seen no demand was created amongst most horse owners. A good number of horseshoers have attempted to make certification into something elitist which it was never intended to be and have turned many of their compatriots against it. As a result we now have constant non-stop arguing about it as I’m sure you’ve seen. Question then becomes how can owners support certification when we don’t even support it ourselves?
George

#114

I really feel much the same. I know some vets who I would not let near my horses at all. I knew one in NY that was outright neglectful in how the horses on her farm were cared for…stalls not cleaned for weeks, not fed properly, dangerous equipment laying around for horses to get hurt on, and I know of at least one horse she killed by improper anesthesia…I was there when it happened. This Vet still practices last I heard. :no: Graduated near the top of her class too…if you can believe that.

I’m a CPA and I know of other CPA’s who are not competent enough to do basic tax work or balance a ledger. Titles really mean very little to me as I’ve seen how little it actually helps.

I’ve also known certified farriers and trimmers who I’d not use either as the quality of their work was not acceptable. A piece of paper or letters after someone’s name is no guarantee of quality work.

#115

I’ll limit my comments by saying that, after reading your rant about underqualified veterinarians, the description of the rigorous training that your certificate holders undergo made wine come out my nose.

I’d like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:
I am removing my response, because again, I know what I teach, and I feel no reason to defend it. Many other Massage Schools are also 5 day…and are also turning out great MT’s.

#116

But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues? Would you feel comfortable using someone who took a week long course on tax to work with/for you?
Nobody is saying that all licensed practitioners of anything are the best there is. But there are far less bad apples licensed than there are bad apples who hung out a shingle after a week long course and do damage.
It’s a case of which is the lesser evil…and the unlicensed far outnumber the licensed in those terms.
When it comes to the health of an animal…the people being paid to treat the animals should have more than a short class on how to care for that animal. Period.

MassageLady…that reply doesn’t address the question at all unfortunately. :no: Bottom line is…after a mere 6 days and a paltry $900…many of your students are then certified to market themselves as a massage therapist. This is frightening beyond comprehension to me. Not knocking your classes/school…but do you seriously think a student with 6 days under their belts is qualified to diagnose and treat muscle ailments in equines? It would be one thing if people took the classes to be able to recreationally massage their own horses. But to be certified and then become a paid “professional” in 6 short days is just proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that unlicensed people doing medical treatment on horses needs to stop. There is no way on God’s green earth a person can learn enough to be a real massage therapist in 6 days. Even if the classes had George Morris, Lendon Grey and the likes as students (people who know horses pretty well) they still shouldn’t be able to go out and market themselves as a certified massage therapist. When one of the vets I’ve used learned to do massage therapy…he mentioned to me it was an 18 month course for him. 18 months for a VET to learn it. Someone who can rattle off every muscle and bone in the horse and tell you what it does, where it is and how it affects the animal. It took him 3 years to learn acupuncture and 2 years for chiro.
How does a layperson learn the same things in 6 days? :eek: :no:

#117

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;3044573]
But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues? Would you feel comfortable using someone who took a week long course on tax to work with/for you? [/QUOTE] No, never. Defies logic or common sense.

Nobody is saying that all licensed practitioners of anything are the best there is. But there are far less bad apples licensed than there are bad apples who hung out a shingle after a week long course and do damage.

Correct

It’s a case of which is the lesser evil…and the unlicensed far outnumber the licensed in those terms.
Correct

When it comes to the health of an animal…the people being paid to treat the animals should have more than a short class on how to care for that animal. Period.
Correct, just as none of us wants to fly with an unlicensed pilot or ride in a bus with an unlicensed driver. Those who work with live tissue of a living breathing animal should be tested and licensed.

On the issue of massage therapists. Some people out there swear by it. Others say it doesn’t really do anything one way or the other. Are there charlatans in that trade? Of course! Just as there are in all trades especially in the horse industry. Should vets be allowed to take them over? No! Should they be tested and licensed in their own right? Yes!

As far as this particular trade goes even at worst I don’t see any harm coming from it so is nothing that should be worried too much about.
George

#118

First we never ‘diagnose’, we do not ever

unlicensed people doing medical treatment
. This is not a ‘medical treatment’ it is massage therapy. And yes, it can be learned-it has been learned for years this way, by many many schools.

But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues?

Actually the guy who did my taxes for 10yrs was not a CPA.:winkgrin: And for the record…if you don’t work on a muscle, or if you forget something, you don’t go to jail for it.:winkgrin:

There is no way on God’s green earth a person can learn enough to be a real massage therapist in 6 days

EQUISSAGE:

If you only participate in the Equine Massage program, your session will be Monday through Friday.

GEARY WHITING COURSE:

As you will soon see, I cover a lot of subjects in a five-day school.

BRIDGE CREEK RANCH:

The Equine Massage I workshop is a week long

There are many good massage therapists out there working now that have come out of these courses. My School, as I said, has more hands on time than any of these…because I felt that it was important. But just like anything else…you must practice when you get home. Again, the proof is in the pudding.:yes:

#119

And my point was…none of those schools are turning out people who should be working on horses. Period. I didn’t mean only your school…I brought up your school as an example. But overall…no school should churn out Certified Equine Massage Therapists in a week. It is impossible for them to learn enough to be safe to use.
All that’s happened is that you’ve compared yourself to others who do the same thing. How about comparing them or yourself to the vets I know who’ve had to take classes for 18 months to do the same things? (after already being a licensed vet)
Using your own kudos on your own website is hardly making an argument for yourself. Nobody who’s paid $900 in hopes of having a money making job is going to complain about the short and cheap class that gave them the chance to make more money. Your quote was from a person who was thrilled with the cheapness of your school and how fast they learned.
Can the folks graduating name every single muscle in the horse? Can they name every single issue muscle problems can cause? Can they name all the bones and how and where each muscle attaches? They learn all that in 7 days? Really?

#120

While once again stating that I’m in agreement that restricting the practice of alternative therapies to vets only is nuts, in my opinion, I also have to say once again that this appears to be a VERY MESSY situation you all find yourselves in, and it’s not one that’s going to lend itself to a resolution simply by a bunch of misdirected anger, paranoia, hand-wringing and “woe unto us” stuff.

Vets are here to stay. Alternative therapy is here to stay. The two almost certainly CAN and SHOULD peacefully coexist. But the burden is on the practitioners. Not the horse owners. Not the vets. That is the way it is. So suck it up, organize, legislate, and be your own advocates. If you want credibility, demonstrate that it is present and accounted for among all your practitioners. Defend yourselves! But don’t get all up in arms or defensive if a lot of people are surprised at what constitutes “accreditation” or “certification”. A one-week course in ANYTHING, I don’t care if it’s typing, car-washing, or learning to blow your nose, is simply not going to carry the same weight as a prolonged course of learning in a related field.

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