Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

[MassageLady]

and it’s not one that’s going to lend itself to a resolution simply by a bunch of misdirected anger, paranoia, hand-wringing and “woe unto us” stuff.

That’s not what this is…this is simply trying to put the word out about something that is going on that the politicians and vets are trying their best to keep secret until the law is passed.
but wouldn’t you be upset if your livlihood was threated to the point of where you wouldn’t be able to do it without going to school for another 10yrs or more? Especially if you were GOOD at what you did, you had helped hundreds of horses become sound or rideable again? It’s ‘woe unto the horse’, because once again, they are the ones that will suffer.

And wonders never cease DW…I actually agree with your second paragraph.

[Blu]

I just wanted to bring up the fact that if you really want change, fight for it and come up with alternatives. At least with registered veterinary technicians, to ease into the change there was a grandfather clause. Meaning that if a veterinary assistant had worked for X number of consecutive years they could study and sit for the state boards and be licensed the same as a person who went to an AVMA accredited program.

Just wanted to bring it up since it seems that there seem to be only extreme options being tossed around by those in “alternative” professions. Calm down. Listen to the great advice being put here about learning to lobby, being active and contacting your legislature. Its not that hard. I dont think anyone said to go have a beer or a coffee with your state senator, if they did by all means correct me, but that is not the only way to make a change.

Since I’m a firm believer in only arguing about something you are accurately aware of (not have read on someones homepage) here is the proposed change to the bill…
http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2008&session=1&request=getBill&doctype=SB&docno=0316

Lastly, you could always submit a request to change the wording. It seems as though its not clear enough wording to put people out of business. Do they mean “alternative therapy” as prescribing/selling herbals to animal owners (think outside horses people…), massage, dentistry?
Didn’t get to read all of these but chart at the bottom of the page is a good summary…
http://www.avma.org/advocacy/state/issues/sr_cavm_exemptions.asp

If you don’t like whats being done take action to make a change and stop whining about it on a BB. Get people together in your profession, set up a listserve/means of communication and just do it. Bounce ideas off each other, get a plan and get it done. Sitting back and worrying, pointing fingers and fighting with people who don’t make a difference isn’t going to help.

[Blu]

Somehow my post went up before I was finished editing and etc. The grandfather clause is not a be all end all. It is nonexistent in some states now and in the process of being cut off in others now that a large enough group of registered/licensed technicians are in the workforce. It was just a thought.

From the chart from the AVMA it seems that in some states it is DVM only for things like dentistry and chiropractic work but in others its under direction (meaning DVM asked for it to be done not that they have to be present), and even in some under direct supervision (DVM is there).

Anyway, I could talk about this all day but I have exams to study for. And it seems I ended up taking on everything else lol.

[Tory_Relic]

@Lookout;3043265

Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?

Well, there are those of us who will not allow someone we do not know work on our horses unless they are licensed. So, I think it is VERY relevant.

As far as “lousy vets” go, everyone has their own opinion of what a “lousy vet” is, and sometimes it’s just because the vet in question will not jump to just because that’s what the horse owner wants. There are some very ignorant and naive horse owners out there. There a plenty of people who want a magic cure.

The vet doesn’t provide it, so alternative people are called in to do the “service.” These folks may or may not be legitimate, but I can tell you, if they do not have some sort of recognized accreditation, they aren’t touching my horse. Licensing would help weed out some of the “not-legitimate” folks.

And, as someone said, if there aren’t enough of these people to band together and have an impact, it tells me two things: 1) there aren’t enough of them to form a real profession, and 2), they don’t have enough support from their clients for the clients to be willing to go to bat for them by writing their state officials and what not. The time to deal with laws and regulations is BEFORE they are enacted; it is much more difficult to get a law changed than to block it from being passed. If you had a professional organization, you would have someone keeping track of these things.

[Ghazzu]

@MassageLady;3044566

I’d like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:

Well, like they say, it’s never too later to have a happy childhood.

[Tory_Relic]

@MassageLady;3044566

I’d like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:

How very professional…

[MassageLady]

Your quote was from a person who was thrilled with the cheapness of your school and how fast they learned.

Actually she said nothing about the ‘cheapness’ of it, as you have put it. She did say however, that she was happy that she could AFFORD it. And yes, this is something you can learn in a short amount of time…or else thousands of CESMT’s wouldn’t be out there already working.:winkgrin:

It is impossible for them to learn enough to be safe to use.

Unless you’ve been thru one of these programs, you do not have any information to support that statement. It is not impossible…it is done all the time.

How about comparing them

Let’s compare you to your riding instructor and see how you do. I’m sure there are plenty of riding instructors out there teaching that also have an instructor, would it be fair to compare them? No, of course not.

there aren’t enough of them to form a real profession

And since 1992, Equissage has graduated more than 8,000 Equine Sports Massage Technicians, from every state and 19 different countries around the world. Many graduates work for the very top echelon of owners and trainers…both in the racing world, as well as on the show circuit. Some have been selected to work with the US Equestrian team at the Olympics, while others have worked on winners of Triple Crown Races.

And that’s just one school.
Listing of the IAAMB members
http://www.iaamb.com/current-members.php

Just because we don’t have a ‘lobbyist’ to scare politicians, doesn’t mean we aren’t ‘real professionals’.

[Katy_Watts]

A human massage therapist I used to use told me she was ‘branching out’ and working on horses. I invited her to ride with me, as she was afraid of her horses and hadn’t ridden for a couple years. Classic green on green scenario, her ‘spiritual’ relationship with horses is the most important to her; she claims to be a horsewoman yet her horses are rude and have dangerous habits. She asked ‘what does left and right lead mean?’ I demonstrated and she said that would be helpful when she works on horses that have a problem with leads. I asked ‘how much equine physiology have you studied?’ She said ‘none, I work intuitively’. Soooo…… she accepts money for working on horses whose problem she can’t even define.
People should at least ask if their alternative therapist has ANY training. Don’t assume anything.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;3044775]
A human massage therapist I used to use told me she was ‘branching out’ and working on horses. I invited her to ride with me, as she was afraid of her horses and hadn’t ridden for a couple years. Classic green on green scenario, her ‘spiritual’ relationship with horses is the most important to her; she claims to be a horsewoman yet her horses are rude and have dangerous habits. She asked ‘what does left and right lead mean?’ I demonstrated and she said that would be helpful when she works on horses that have a problem with leads. I asked ‘how much equine physiology have you studied?’ She said ‘none, I work intuitively’. Soooo…… she accepts money for working on horses whose problem she can’t even define.
People should at least ask if their alternative therapist has ANY training. Don’t assume anything.[/QUOTE]

I will say that I wish people would have to be certified to be trainers.
What we see around here called trainers is really not acceptable in so many levels, from horse care and all around stable management, to their handling and riding and instruction.

At least people would learn some very basics, if made to obtain a minimum certification, before putting a shingle up as “horse trainers”.

I expect it should be the same for anyone working with someone else’s horses, in any category.

[RAyers]

Maybe, the legislatures are creating these laws in order to bring the laws more inline with US Supreme Court rulings in 1991 (Daubert vs. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals) and 1999 (Kumho v. Charmichael Tires) that defined who and what an “expert” is? Thus creating a UNIFORM code by which the consumer can judge the validity of a person’s capabilities. This would definitely make it easier to prosecute snake oil salesmen as well as clarify who represents what interests in legal proceedings.

So far, other than farriery, nobody has made any good case on this thread as to why there should not be any sort of over sight. Massage has valid applications, so do herbs, diet, and all of the rest. However, in order to have a holistic treatment, there has to be some sort of consistency in understanding between the disciplines (e.g. farrier needs to know hoof structure, function, biology, biomechanics). I would prefer my message therapist or chiropractor have the same.

Reed

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=RAyers;3044796]
Thus creating a UNIFORM code by which the consumer can judge the validity of a person’s capabilities. [/QUOTE]

Or, the consumer could get some background education, ask good questions and learn to think critically. I don’t think having the government set standards is the answer, for moral, ethical, or quality issues. IMO, the government screws up most everything they touch. Just keeps bureaucrats employed.

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;3044816]
Or, the consumer could get some background education, ask good questions and learn to think critically. I don’t think having the government set standards is the answer, for moral, ethical, or quality issues. IMO, the government screws up most everything they touch. Just keeps bureaucrats employed.

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.[/QUOTE]

It is a nice wish. I hope for the same thing. However the reality is that
given that more than 2/3s of Americans have less then a high school education, critical thinking is not going to happen with a majority of people. Hence the need for uniform rules. Face it, the people who tend to sue are also the most uniformed or refuse to accept that they needed to have some accountability.

People can not know everything about everything and at some point must rely on others to help them. Those are the professionals and licensed experts, etc.

[deltawave]

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.

Ai, talked to any high school students lately? :lol: Critical thinking isn’t something you can do in a 5-week course, either. And I’d argue (probably not convincingly, but there you go) that critical thinking isn’t something that can be apprehended by the average adolescent brain. But oh, what a better world this would be if it were part of the general curriculum of LIFE. Instead of watching TV, imagine if we read the classics, studied the great philosophers, exposed ourselves to greater minds. :eek:

Going to stop now. Too much caffeine, a four hour morning lecture full of argumentative specialists splitting hairs, and a head full of sudafed. Yikes! :lol:

[JHUshoer20]

Hey Delta,

Don’t know if you were aware of the turmoil of a couple years ago that was caused by the Miller report. Basically Mike Miller is an MD who wrote a report to the AFA in favor of licensing using a report from the sorry state of medical education in 1910.

He found the parallels to be frightening. The report was a real good read so have a look if you want. http://www.picturetrail.com/gid15963051

It might be small and hard to see and my apologies for that but that website was the only place I could find it.
George

[redleaflady]

The point here is not whether to license these people or not. The point is that if this is taken over by the vets, it will be hard in many areas to find alternative practioners. In areas where thay exist (as Vets) the cost of treatment will be much higher. Around here there is a lack of any equine vets. We have to settle for a general large animal vet that is a lot more familiar with cows. I will have to haul my horses to a vet school or clinic to get treatment for anything beyond the general basic stuff such as shots or coggin’s. Alternative methods would become completely unavailable to some. Just to get a vet on the farm here is at least $50 before they even look at the horse. Now tack on an exam fee of $40+ and the alternative treatment and the cost will easily be at least around $200 if not more. I use a chiroprator that is on the expensive side (but well worth it) at $155-165. I would still come out ahead using her and not a vet (if it were even available here).

I have no problem with licensing if they can come up with a way to make it equal across the board. It would have to be available to those that are already practicing without requiring them to go back to school and take more classes. But I think that the consumer needs to be able to think and use common sense also. If it doesn’t look right or feel right, if the horse is having a hard time with it, if it is not effective, don’t hire these people again. I have seen the work of several certified journeyman farriers and have not been impressed. I recently moved and have pulled the shoes on both my mares and trim their feet myself. We don’t have farriers around here that I can use. In trimming my 18 yr old myself, I have been able to move her underrun heels back over an inch. Her feet are at least 2 shoe sizes bigger. I was using a great farrier before I moved but he had not been able to make that much progress in 10+ years with her. Maybe it was because she had shoes on, I don’t know. The point is it possible to do a good job at a lot of these types of work without spending years in school to learn it. The guy who showed me how to trim has no formal schooling. But he was able in a years time to take a horse that had foundered to the point of both front coffin bones coming through the soles to the point of his feet looking as though he had never foundered. Several vets looking at this horse after the work was done cannot believe he had foundered. The vets would have had him put down as bad as the founder was. This founder was caused by the work of a professional farrier. There are a lot of people out there that are not certified, licensed, etc. that are very good at what they do. There are many out there that are licensed that are not. We need to be educated enough to tell the difference.

[deltawave]

You are welcome to do a good job on your own horses all you want. But I’m not hiring someone whose credentials don’t exist or are undocumented to work on MY horses, no matter how impressed they are with their own abilities.

Interesting link, George, thanks for posting it. What a strange set of credentials, I must say! :lol: Cool. Probably worth everyone reading it in the context of this current discussion. But grab your bifocals! And uhhh, what’s with the porno links on top, George? :lol: :lol:

[sublimequine]

Wait… people can become certified equine message therapists after a THREE DAY course?

I’m scared. :eek:

[Tory_Relic]

@redleaflady;3045022

We need to be educated enough to tell the difference.

Another function carried out by a professional association.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045022]

I have no problem with licensing if they can come up with a way to make it equal across the board. It would have to be available to those that are already practicing without requiring them to go back to school and take more classes. [/QUOTE] In all likelihood yes.There would probably be grandfathering. As a horseshoer I can say that with our rate of turnover it would clean everything up within a couple of short years.

I have seen the work of several certified journeyman farriers and have not been impressed.
Thats easily believable. Certified is not licensed. Certified means someone made the grade or came up to a standard one day in their life. Thats it. Then their certified forever. If they were licensed there would be an enforcement board that owners would have access to ensuring that quality standards were maintained. Unless you were in Illinois pre 1980’s or have been hanging around racetracks you’ve never been around anybody licensed.

Here is a link to the wcf. The British Craft Guild which oversees the trade in that country http://www.wcf.org.uk/

Check out their training and examinations and contrast it with the US and Canada where there is nothing required beyond waking up one morning and deciding thats what you want to do.
George

[tarynls]

[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045022]
The point is that if this is taken over by the vets, it will be hard in many areas to find alternative practioners. In areas where thay exist (as Vets) the cost of treatment will be much higher. Around here there is a lack of any equine vets. We have to settle for a general large animal vet that is a lot more familiar with cows. I will have to haul my horses to a vet school or clinic to get treatment for anything beyond the general basic stuff such as shots or coggin’s. Alternative methods would become completely unavailable to some. Just to get a vet on the farm here is at least $50 before they even look at the horse.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying (IF) this happens, a vet must be present at all times when your horse is being shod/trimmed? Or are you saying that the shoeing/trimming can only take place under the direction of a vet but they need not be present?

Personally, vets have their hands full as it is and either of the scenerios I presented will NOT go over well with vets. Consider breeding/foaling season - most vets very busy, do not have the time to “supervise” farrier trimming/shoeing Dobbin (Scenerio 1). Most vets don’t have the time to make a phone call to every single farrier to tell them “Now, this is what you are supposed to do with Dobbin” (Scenerio 2). Same applies to any massage therapist, chiro, etc…

Please. Last documentation I could find regarding dentistry, etc. falling under the guise of veterinary medicine was in 2005 (thehorse.com) - and even then, it was only a few states (Florida sticking in my mind). Also googled the issue for info and searched the AFA Members Only section (BF is a certified farrier). Nothing.

Seems everyone (including legislature) has been content to let things be for the past three years and let the farriers take care of the hooves (as they see and work on MANY MANY more hooves than the average vet that gets ONE course in hoofcare in vet school) etc…