Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

I don’t know any vets that want to stand around and watch farriers, acupuncturists, and the like work on horses under their direct supervision. They don’t have the TIME. Makes no sense to me.

We use “physician extenders” (PAs and nurse practitioners) all the time. The point is to have them working WITH us, not UNDER us. They are autonomous and allow us to, literally, extend what we’re able to do and who we’re able to care for. Having to hover over them and approve their every thought would be useless.

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;3045075]
Certified is not licensed. Certified means someone made the grade or came up to a standard one day in their life. Thats it. Then their certified forever. George[/QUOTE]

George - I agree with you re: AFA - pass the test one day & you’re set for life. However, what about those “certified” farriers that attend clinics, workshops, conventions - often out of state, admission paid out of their own pocket AND don’t forget they are missing the opportunity to work and earn money while attending

To take off, your farrier licensing idea would not only have to consist of an enforcement board (I’m assuming you speak of a board that horse owners/trainers/etc. could report negligence to?), but also periodic re-licensing (say, re-test every two years or so) AND the farriers would not be able to re-test without having attended a number of clinics, educational symposiums, etc… that offer CE [continuing education] credits. Heck, there is a clinic coming up at NJ Equine that offers 6 CE credits.

If we are going to license these hoofcare professionals, let’s hold them to the same standards (CE, re-test periodically) that we do veterinarians and human doctors.

JMO.

[QUOTE=tarynls;3045081]
Are you saying (IF) this happens, a vet must be present at all times when your horse is being shod/trimmed? Or are you saying that the shoeing/trimming can only take place under the direction of a vet but they need not be present?[/QUOTE] If horseshoers are not forever excluded from these laws their trade will be re-defined as vet medicine. This will mean that vets will merely add shoeing to their services they provide and hire horseshoers to do the work. Most signifigant change will be no more private enterprise or independent business for horseshoers.

Personally, vets have their hands full as it is and either of the scenerios I presented will NOT go over well with vets. Consider breeding/foaling season - most vets very busy, do not have the time to “supervise” farrier trimming/shoeing Dobbin (Scenerio 1). Most vets don’t have the time to make a phone call to every single farrier to tell them “Now, this is what you are supposed to do with Dobbin” (Scenerio 2). Same applies to any massage therapist, chiro, etc…

With the profit potential I’m sure many will welcome it. As far as other trades they’ll just be run out of business as one of my ex’s was.

Please. Last documentation I could find regarding dentistry, etc. falling under the guise of veterinary medicine was in 2005 (thehorse.com) - and even then, it was only a few states (Florida sticking in my mind).
Florida was signed into law and has created a holy mess down there.

Also googled the issue for info and searched the AFA Members Only section (BF is a certified farrier). Nothing.
For some better info try this one http://www.horsedentist.com/News%20and%20Commentary.htm
or www.IAAOR.org. AFA’s refusal to involve themselves in this and their malfeasance and ineptitude the one time they tried is why they have nothing to say about it. Let’s not even go there.

Seems everyone (including legislature) has been content to let things be for the past three years and let the farriers take care of the hooves (as they see and work on MANY MANY more hooves than the average vet that gets ONE course in hoofcare in vet school) etc…

Actually, no. It has been the work of the aforementioned groups that has slowed the progress of these laws. The JHU stands with them in opposition as well. Before there was opposition things progressed rapidly. This shows the effectiveness of organization.
George

I don’t know any vets that want to stand around and watch farriers, acupuncturists, and the like work on horses under their direct supervision. They don’t have the TIME. Makes no sense to me.

It’s because you’re looking at it the wrong way…they don’t want ANY alternative therapy done-PERIOD. Perhaps they will look the other way for farriers, or try to make them part of something they’ll have to ‘join’ (for a fee of course). They only want allopathic meds done…more shots, more vaccines, etc. No massage (instead of shots-hock/stifle injections, etc.), no acupressurists (also to help relieve pain, instead of shots, etc, and farm calls).

[QUOTE=MassageLady;3045116]
It’s because you’re looking at it the wrong way…they don’t want ANY alternative therapy done-PERIOD. Perhaps they will look the other way for farriers, or try to make them part of something they’ll have to ‘join’ (for a fee of course). They only want allopathic meds done…more shots, more vaccines, etc. No massage (instead of shots-hock/stifle injections, etc.), no acupressurists (also to help relieve pain, instead of shots, etc, and farm calls).[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, but that is a bunch of you-know-what.

The person who does chiro & acupuncture work on my horse not only happens to BE a vet, specializing ONLY in chiro/acupuncture/alternative medicine, she DOES NOT charge for a farm call. She charges a flat fee for the work I called her out to perform and if the horse requires more (say, massage before chiro) she DOES NOT CHARGE extra for it. I would expect to pay for her gas soon as the gas prices are approching $3/gal and I am not close to her but I will gladly pay it.

Just FYI, a chiro/acupuncture session lasting approx. an hour and a half (give or take) costs me $100 in UBER-EXPENSIVE NEW JERSEY. What do you charge for your massages and how long do you spend with the horse?

Perhaps you may want to research before you say vets don’t want “any alternative therapy done - period”.

Certainly not the case here and there are other vets in my area that provide the same services.

One of my vets does chiropractic and acupuncture and herbs. Not on MY horses (chiro only for me, thanks, from the pantheon of all things “alternative”) but it is a LARGE part of his practice. So you can’t paint all vets with the same broad brush. If a cadre of vets wants alternatives “stamped out” it seems they’re going about it in an awfully strange way, having all such therapies confined to vets only. :confused: This is where the odor of “conspiracy theory” starts seeping in, I’m sorry to say. What are the vets that already are certified and trained in acu/chiro, etc. have to say on this topic?

I call BS on that one, honey.

I am a DVM. I do acupuncture and use herbal medicine when appropriate. I have taken a veterinary chiropractic course, though I don’t feel qualified to run around adjusting horses because I’d like to spend time with a good experienced practitioner before I do that, and I haven’t had time.

I know a lot of DVMs who use integrative therapies. Why, there are even professional associations such as the International Veterinary Acupuncture Society, the American Association of Veterinary Acupuncture, the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association, the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association, the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, etc., etc. Imagine that.

You keep running on about DVMs as though the profession were some monolithic entity that has one opinion about everything, and you know what it is.

You’re wrong about that on so many levels.

Ghazzu what kind of training does a vet have to undergo to do acupuncture?

Well, dearie, when I said ‘they’ I meant the ones pushing the bill thru.
I also have a great vet that does acupuncture and chiro-he is a founder and on the board of elders of the American Holistic Veterinarian Medical Board.:winkgrin:
But there are those who are not vets, that do great work that are needed by people out there that cannot get a vet to do massage/chiro/ etc. because they are not close by.

You keep running on about DVMs as though the profession were some monolithic entity that has one opinion about everything, and you know what it is.

You’re wrong about that on so many levels.

And yet, pushing this bill thru-as quietly and quickly as possible-proves my point.
those of you who are doing alternative therapies are few and far between. I’ve never said all vets are bad, I’ve said ONE vet that I know if is horrible-I’m sure there are others…I’m sure there are bad eggs everywhere. Vets have their place…but so do those who do alternative therapies. Vets should not be able to take the choice away from owners. Or am I wrong about that too??:lol:

If ‘they’ are pushing the bill through as ‘quickly and quietly’ as possible…then how does everyone know about it?
Maybe it seems “quietly” pushed through and “quickly” done because nobody seems to have an issue with it except for a minority of people?
FWIW…CT allows massage from unlicensed practitioners. And we have many, many vets who also do massage, acu, chiro, herbs, you name it. Might be harder to find one who believes in chakras or the like…but there are a couple that do practice that also here.
In areas with less equine vets and having them further apart…then I doubt anyone already with a 3-6 day certificate is really going to stop practicing. As long as their clients are happy, their clients aren’t likely to report them.

In most places, they don’t have to have any. A veterinary license allows you to stick pins in animals. I have some reservations about that.

IVAS standards for certification call for a course with a mimimum of 120-160 hours of lecture/lab, passing a written and practical exam, 40 plus hours of “internship” under a certified practitioner, and submission of a case report.
Followed by keeping up with CE hours.

[QUOTE=MassageLady;3045196]
Vets should not be able to take the choice away from owners. Or am I wrong about that too??:lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes, there was a recent memo distributed to all vets discussing the need to take over all aspects of animal medicine. A secret ballot was conducted and all vets voted using their secret decoder rings.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums’ lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

Well, veterinarians and other medical professionals deservedly have begun to take control of this lunacy via legislation because they are tired of being held accountable for the actions of many so called “alternative practitioners.”

Again, take some responsibility and accountability for your profession instead of whining. Get involved in the system and find out what is really happening. You might be surprised by the reality.

Reed

[quote=MistyBlue;3045221]
If ‘they’ are pushing the bill through as ‘quickly and quietly’ as possible…then how does everyone know about it?
Maybe it seems “quietly” pushed through and “quickly” done because nobody seems to have an issue with it except for a minority of people?
FWIW…CT allows massage from unlicensed practitioners. [/QUOTE]

How does ‘everyone’ know? I don’t think after 8 pages of this thread even all the people here know what the issue is. They’ve been going on and on about licensing. I think you’d get a blank look from most people.

In areas with less equine vets and having them further apart…then I doubt anyone already with a 3-6 day certificate is really going to stop practicing. As long as their clients are happy, their clients aren’t likely to report them.

Well I guess that makes it okay then.

If I may ask, what school of massage for animals take 18 months, for a vet to get through? I’m interested because this seems like double or triple what a human massage course takes (according to a MT I recently asked). What horror stories from the 6 day certificate people do you know of?

Take away the nonsense language and this is not so far from the truth. Having just looked at the link that itemizes the exceptions state by state, it looks like every state has some version of this already in place and the only exceptions are farriers, with onesy twosy’s of ‘if service being performed free of charge.’ So it’s ok to mess up someone’s horse as long as you’re not getting paid for it. It’s a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has left to say start organizing and legislating.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums’ lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

Well, veterinarians and other medical professionals deservedly have begun to take control of this lunacy via legislation because they are tired of being held accountable for the actions of many so called “alternative practitioners.”

I don’t know where you get these scenarios but I don’t know of a single vet that has ever been sued, but I do know of some that should have been. In one scenario Idiot A was the owner and Idiot B is apparently me, while the vet (a track vet, and a second opinion by that point) took an xray and told the owner the horse had a fractured leg, after 6 weeks it was not only not healing but getting worse and she had to ‘make the decision’. (I can share the digital xray). You probably can guess the end of the story which is the horse is sound and back to team penning now.

I think what I’m reading is this.

The alternative med folks want to go about their business with no entity protecting the consumer or verifying credentials. Somehow, horse owners all across the US are just supposed to rely upon your word.

The argument to support this notion is that there are a few bad vets out there. What that has to do with the price of eggs I have no idea.

Another argument is that it’s just too hard to establish their occupations as true professions. Even though RN’s, PA, paralegals, and other occupations have managed to do it. Because the veterinary/pharmaceutical/military industrial complex is like the Borg - and they are doomed to assimilation.

In case others haven’t noticed, I’ll point it out. I’ve read nothing in the posts that indicate any of the “alternative” practitioners are interested in doing anything but whining about how unfair this is and how it’s just too difficult to do anything about it.

Tough noogies. You think the other occupations didn’t face similar challenges? Even more difficult? Compare the nursing profession to what it was 20 years ago. Paralegals. Just those two occupations are perfect examples. If you think those people just waltzed into respectability and didn’t have to work for it you’re crazy.

I live in an area that has some of the best veterinarians in the country. We’re blessed. I have never met one who was not fully supportive of things like massage, acupuncture, or other modalities. But I will tell you what they caution. They caution their clients to be very very careful when choosing such a person to work on their horse. Because there are a lot - and I mean a LOT of people who are downright dangerous. And there is no way to weed them out. No way for a horse owner to know if they’re any good.

The good ones are known to local vets and receive referrals all the time. I could call my vet right now and get a list of people he trusts. Farriers included. But again - I’m lucky. I’d not consider that standard across the country.

Veterinary care for a horse (in my opinion) requires a team. The team consists of the owner, vet, farrier and other professionals as needed. I’d never hire a massage therapist that spoke of the veterinary profession in as derogatory manner as MassageLady has done. Neither would I hire a farrier that had no respect for vets. Each trade/profession complements the other. A true professional would act accordingly.

And though these alternative med folks have gotten scads of great advice on this thread - it bears repeating. Get involved in the legislative process, or sit in a corner and pout about how unfair life is.

But don’t be surprised if people don’t join in on the pity party.

[QUOTE=RAyers;3045228]
.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums’ lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

"

Reed[/QUOTE]

But in this democracy Money wins the vote. A lot of good alternative practitioners do this for the good of the horse and not so much the money. They need to and deserve to be able to make a living.

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.

If I may ask, what school of massage for animals take 18 months, for a vet to get through?

A good friend of mine is an equine therapist here in CA. she had to first have a human massage therapist license then additional training to do animals. So 2 years for the human training + whatever for the animals.

I think what I’m reading is this.

The alternative med folks want to go about their business with no entity protecting the consumer or verifying credentials.

No that’s not what you’re reading. The alternative folks want not to have to be a DVM to practice, but want to continue under the current rules. The licensing/ training of those folks is an entirely differernt arguement. This makes total sense to me, as vet training is completely superfluous to being say, a massage therapist. Also it is the way human treament is managed, with different states setting the professional qualifications needed for levels of treatment.

Considering that vets can practice acupuncture with NO training per Ghazzu it makes even more sense to seperate the specialites. It’s a tad scary that vets can practice things they’re not trained in simply by virtue of being a vet (not that I think acupuncture does a damn thing :wink: ).

redleaflady

[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045365]
Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.[/QUOTE]

I have two questions - just curious and trying to learn.

  1. Am I supposed to believe that the same LED lights that people use in high-end car headlights heal a fracture?

  2. I DID try the LED therapy on my 7 month old Lab puppy. Partially torn biceps tendon (I know, not a fracture). We were vigilant about completing the “prescribed” course of treatment. No improvement whatsoever. Of course, it was “guaranteed” to at least help, if not “cure” the problem. After the treatments were finished, we took said puppy back to said practicioner. Her answer? “Oh, she must have developed adhesions in the area. Try it for another X amount of weeks.”

Needless to say, we politely declined, went the veterinary route with a course of rest and anti-inflammatories and guess what? Puppy is no longer lame.

That is interesting, now, isn’t it?

And even tho’ they may not have any training in a given modality, they are asking for the right to determine if it is necessary and if so, to direct the treatment.

As George said, just follow the money.

I agree w/Katy… the consumer should be making decisions about who is qualified and who is not to work on their horses… JUST like they have to do when they choose a vet. It is no different. As we all know, not all DVM’s are equal… I particularly like the ones who specialized in cows, but do horses on the side :lol:

I do know vets who are interested in providing all the modalities in one place… we have one here, who I mentioned has required that all the vets in their practice go to dental school. Great! We use them for our dentistry. But now, this is sort of funny… one of them went to chiro school. I asked her if we should switch from our chiro who has 15+ years of experience, since she is not also a DVM… the vet told me NO, that the chiro we use is excellent, and let’s face it, just because she went to school doesn’t mean she knows more than someone with that kind of experience! I admire her for that. THAT is a vet I will continue to use because she is living in reality and doesn’t mind that her customers are, too. It’s not all about getting the last dollar in her mind, it’s about the horses getting the best care they can get.

On the other hand, we have a practice here (that I named previously, I hope everyone who needed to know who it is got that :wink: who is an ardent supporter of making everything, including farriery, illegal so they can get more of the pot. It’s not hard to sort out who is who in this.

[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045365]

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.[/QUOTE]

Amazing. Did you fracture the other leg to have a bilateral control? Did you take a biopsy so observe osteoblast/osteoclast upregulations? Did you pul blood to see if there was decreased or increased alkaline phosphotase? Did you do any histomorphomtry to measure osteoid thickness?

Or did you just assume that the time went faster? I have yet to see any LED light even penetrate below the outer layer of skin. This is the biggest reason we have no been able to make optical glucose sensors. How do I know this? I have been working on light penetration (photovoltaic and phonon response) in soft tissues to make indwelling biosensors. I’ll trade my real world experience to your guess any day.

Money wins the vote? Somebody better tell John McCain that he should not be running for president as he was broke at one point this year. Or, as somebody already mentioned, many lobbiests don’t make much money so maybe they should give up? Or maybe my next door neighbor who made the DoD change the way they closed down a nuclear weapons plant who worked her ass off to become her own expert on plutonium soil contamination should have ever tried?

While money helps, you are using it as a cop out.

Reed