Uh, how much less? Isn’t 8-12 weeks pretty typical for non-joint fracture healing?
And, I don’t think this is about questioning whether a modality works or not, just who gets to use it.
Reed, I applaud you. 'Nuff said. Excellent response, especially considering we were not privy to location of coffin bone fx, if it was a simple or complex fx or just an insult to bone (think shin splints in people - very very minor fx), time lapse from “break” to “healing”.
Thank you.
My vet and farrier both told me to prepare for at least a 9 month lay up woth her. I used the LEDs and my vet was surprised that the fracture showed no sign of being there at the x-rays taken at 3 1/2 months. The X-rays taken at 2 months showed an 80+% healing rate. Other coffin fractures I have seen in friends horses have had at least a year lay up time. I was on her walking at 2 months and back to full work at 3 1/2.
Uh, great example. He was considered out of the race, because he was broke. He had to borrow money and briefly run a shoe string operation and get a few votes to show he had some viability, and his campaign was revived only because donors then started donating again. Look at all the other ones - the ones with the most money are still in (and Clinton had to borrow from herself or otherwise would have had to drop out), the ones that had lots of money even though it wasn’t from voters, stayed in longer than they otherwise would have, and the ones with no money are GONE. This selective residence (in general on this post not this one in particular) in naive-land to make a point is really fascinating.
I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time.
Take it to the supreme court if you want to testify. Anecdotes ain’t data. It is this kind of magical thinking and insistence that one’s own personal experience trumps the laws of science and the results of research that make people think that alternative therapies and their practitioners are WAY too often making those duck-like sounds. Or, in other words, why would I believe someone with no credentials, no particular training and no scientific background who told me a miraculous story about “treatment X” when there is ample evidence that “treatment X” is no better than placebo? If I’m trading stories with a fellow horse person about a particular remedy that’s one thing, but what if that fellow horse person now sets him or herself up as a self-styled “expert” or “practitioner” in this field? By doing nothing more than buying a piece of equipment or taking a weekend practical course?
Somebody needs to draw the line somewhere. Practice voodoo on your own horse if you want, but unless you can walk the walk and are truly expert in your field, don’t peddle a bunch of crap to horse owners. There are more ethical ways of earning a living than spinning “beliefs” into “facts”.
DW…why don’t you get a pile of wood together and burn us all??
Do you think we learn this stuff and work for ourselves, making minimal money at best-and working full time jobs also, just to ‘peddle crap to horseowners’?? No, we do it because we BELIEVE in what we’re doing, we KNOW that it helps, and then we have to put up with people like you.:lol:
You said yourself that you use alternative therapies on your horse…I guess you’ve also have ‘fallen under our voodoo spell’. Or are you too intelligent for that??
I know what I’m capable of, and so does redleaflady-we know what has happened are not just ‘anecdotes’ as you call them, they are not placebo effects either. Just because YOU haven’t witnessed them, nor have they been ‘paid for’ with government money and studied for 10yrs, they ARE valid as far as helping the equine. How do you think your studies are done?? Anecdotes also! Testing drugs on people to see what happens…asking them to write up their symptoms, etc. There is a testing place not far from me always asking people to sign up to ‘be part of a scientific test’, they get paid too. So…just anecdotes from the scientific side also.
[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045557]
My vet and farrier both told me to prepare for at least a 9 month lay up woth her. I used the LEDs and my vet was surprised that the fracture showed no sign of being there at the x-rays taken at 3 1/2 months. The X-rays taken at 2 months showed an 80+% healing rate. Other coffin fractures I have seen in friends horses have had at least a year lay up time. I was on her walking at 2 months and back to full work at 3 1/2.[/QUOTE]
So my questions still go unanswered - where on the coffin bone was the fracture? Wing, tip, etc? Was it a simple or complex (in many pieces) fracture? Location is key!
All of the above must be considered in the healing process. Was the horse shod to provide some sort of immobilization to the coffin bone if needed?
I still have a VERY hard time believing simple lights that (as Reed stated) cannot penetrate past the superficial layer of the skin.
Is it possible you just got lucky? Have you been able to repeat your stated results?
Thank you for taking the time to educate me.
Unlike you, I’m not painting all practitioners with the same brush. There are very legitimate practitioners of all kinds of things out there. I prefer to use a vet, others are comfortable not doing so. But do you really want to tell me there aren’t a WHOLE BUNCH of nut-jobs out there peddling a bunch of pseudoscientific CRAP to an unsuspecting public? They’re out there, there are TONS of them, and they don’t just prey on horse owners and I assure you they’re not doing it because they “believe in” anything but the profit margin. Any legitimate, well trained, thoughtful practitioner who speaks the facts clearly has no enemy in me. But start spouting a bunch of pseudoscience and implausible nonsense and I have no sympathy at all for the field in general having no credibility and potentially being subjected to regulation. None too soon, if you ask me. If you’ve got the credentials, the legitimacy, the training, the science to back up your field of work, you have nothing to worry about from some form of credentialing or legislated partnerships with professional medical practitioners like vets.
And if you don’t know the difference between a pile of random anecdotes and a properly designed study to answer therapeutic questions, well, you don’t need my lending you a shovel to dig your hole any deeper. :lol:
Whoa now.
[QUOTE=MassageLady;3045627]
DW…why don’t you get a pile of wood together and burn us all??
Do you think we learn this stuff and work for ourselves, making minimal money at best-and working full time jobs also, just to ‘peddle crap to horseowners’?? No, we do it because we BELIEVE in what we’re doing, we KNOW that it helps, and then we have to put up with people like you.:lol:
You said yourself that you use alternative therapies on your horse…I guess you’ve also have ‘fallen under our voodoo spell’. Or are you too intelligent for that??
I know what I’m capable of, and so does redleaflady-we know what has happened are not just ‘anecdotes’ as you call them, they are not placebo effects either. Just because YOU haven’t witnessed them, nor have they been ‘paid for’ with government money and studied for 10yrs, they ARE valid as far as helping the equine. How do you think your studies are done?? Anecdotes also! Testing drugs on people to see what happens…asking them to write up their symptoms, etc. There is a testing place not far from me always asking people to sign up to ‘be part of a scientific test’, they get paid too. So…just anecdotes from the scientific side also.[/QUOTE]
I, personally, do think that you believe in what you’re doing. Otherwise you wouldn’t speak with such passion re: your work.
However - In the case of the coffin bone fx, have the miraculous results been repeated? Or was it a one-time deal? One time deal to me would make me question placebo effect or just plain luck. Repeated, consistent results might make me think otherwise until backed up by the scientific method.
Yes, I use alternative therapies on my horse. However, the massage therapist I use has over 20 years experience and is called upon to help horses recovering at NJ Equine (to jog memories, the same facility that surgically repaired Smarty Jones’ fractured skull). I refuse to use any MT, certification status nonwithstanding, IF they have only had THREE DAYS hand on work. The experience is just not there. Same deal with the chiro/acu DVM. Her experience speaks volumes.
I too have no doubt that many, many practitioners believe passionately in what they do. But belief and knowledge ain’t the same thing, necessarily. If there is legitimate, solid, knowledge there is nothing to fear from scrutiny, from a program of oversight, or from a process of standardization. Wouldn’t you WANT to weed out the greedy, the undertrained, the amateurs and the hacks?
It was a wing tip fracture. She was shod to help immobilize the coffin bone. But the vet and farrier still thought it would take 9+months to heal before she could be ridden at all. The key to LEDs is the frequency of light being emmited. IF you use the wrong frequencies, it is not effective. NASA and the medical profession recognize that LED therapy works. Just google LEPT or low energy photon therapy. A ton of information comes up. I thoroughly researched this information before I purchased a system. It is so easy to use and there are almost no contradictions. The only two are not to use it over a wound untill bleeding is under control and not to use it on pregnant animals. The second is only in place to keep the system from a bad reputation if a mare that is already in trouble happens to abort. It won’t be blamed on the LEDs. Anyone can learn to use it in a few hours. With a little practice, anyone can effectively work on horses. I use the LEDs on myself when I get bruised, injured, etc. It heals much faster than similar injuries that I get that I don’t treat.
Anyone can learn to use it in a few hours. With a little practice, anyone can effectively work on horses.
So would this theoretical person be what you’d consider a “qualified practitioner”?
Just google LEPT or low energy photon therapy. A ton of information comes up.
Weeellll, I guess you can call that “information”. But let me recommend that we NOT use Google as a reference for medical procedures and equipment. :lol: Why not try Pub Med instead, or if you MUST Google, try scholar.google.com to get something that’s actually got a chance of having been peer-reviewed and maybe even published. I’ll drop a little hint here–you won’t have to spend very long going through your list of results. :lol:
[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045676]
I use the LEDs on myself when I get bruised, injured, etc. It heals much faster than similar injuries that I get that I don’t treat.[/QUOTE]
Explain then to me how LED’s can “heal” a fx yet not help a soft tissue injury (perhaps you recall I tried it on my puppy with partial tear of biceps tendon)? FYI, farrier boyfriend also used the unit on himself for various aches and pains. Didn’t do a thing for him either. I am boggled by this. (Before you ask, YES, we used the proper frequency.) Thank you.
Can you please point me to any info from NASA about LED as therapy?
Actually, point me at anything other than ads for facial wrinkles or Botox alternatives.
There are NO DATA that support the use of LEDs in fracture healing. NONE. But that apparently doesn’t stop those who “believe”. :lol:
I would really like to know which part of the medical profession recognizes that LEDs work for much more than brake lights and maybe skin.
Here are some sites with info on LEDs:
http://users.erols.com/iri/EnewsNov19,2003.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2003/03-199.html
http://www.wounds1.com/news/tech.cfm/0
These are just a small few. If you look past the facial sites or narrow your searches there are a lot more. Notice one of the sites is a NASA link.
[QUOTE=redleaflady;3045720]
Here are some sites with info on LEDs:
http://users.erols.com/iri/EnewsNov19,2003.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2003/03-199.html
http://www.wounds1.com/news/tech.cfm/0
These are just a small few. If you look past the facial sites or narrow your searches there are a lot more. Notice one of the sites is a NASA link.[/QUOTE]
The wounds1.com link was dated 7/23/2003. The users.erols.com link was dated 11/4/2003. Your NASA link is dated 11/5/2003. All from approx. 4 years ago. If the therapy was so promising, why haven’t there been updated reports?
Not only that, but all three articles state they were using LED’s to promote mucosal healing. That tissue is a lot more superficial than bone, tendon, or ligament. The erols.com link DID mention promising results in tendon & ligament healing - we haven’t heard anything about that since 2003. Wonder why.
Me thinks one would provide recent literature if one wants to be taken seriously…
The issue here is not what alternative methods people use. Some are very valid. Some work great in one case and not so well in another. This real issue is that the states are one by one passing laws that limit these practices to a vet only. Not everyone is going to use or embrace every alternate modality. But do you want the option of finding someone that can use these modalities if you desire to try them? Not every horse owner has thousands of dollars to drop on equiptment if their horse gets injured and the vet basically give up any hope on your horse getting through an injury ok. It is very hard to hear that your prized future show horse will NEVER be sound again. That is what started me on this path of alternative healing in the first place. The vet school I used to treat the tendon laceration was very anti-alternative medicine. (see OP) I added to their protocol. I figured if it wouldn’t cause harm, try it. The vets were amazed at the results. At the last recheck, over a year after the origional injury, I had three vets tell my “congratulations, horses DON’T come back from injuries like that.” If these are the vets teaching our future vets, what makes you think that the vets will even be able to provide these services? Again I will state that I am not opposed to some sort of licensing for these professionals. But the vets do not need to be the ones who control all.
They are using this type of therapy in Canada and Europe to treat tumors and other issues. It is classified as a medical device in these countries. The information is not wanted here because it is not a drug and the surgeons are not making a lot of money with it. It all goes back to who is making the money. Right now it is the doctors and the drug companies.
Redleaflady, good thing you brought up a suspect alternative therapy for people to finally have some red meat worth sinking their teeth into, the go get licensed/certified tangent just got so boring (especially since many of the practitioners affected by this act already were licensed/certified, etc., making the argument less than moot).
