[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7759396]
Arsenic is not the toxic principle in nightshade. Atropine, solanine, and scopalomine are some of the toxic constituents.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. Is there a test for those?
Clinical signs should go a long way–dilated pupils, decreased peristalsis leading to colic signs, increased heart rate and respiratory rate.
I’d suspect that a tox screen would turn up those compounds if they were being looked for.
(Contrary to what one would imagine given television shows, one does not send a blood sample to the lab to have it checked for “drugs” or “poison”. One needs to have a general idea, at least, of what to look for.)
Does the BO have some sort of business/liability insurance for the boarding operation? Is there any chance it would cover all or part of the horse’s medical expenses? You’ll have to ask, doesn’t sound like they are volunteering anything.
I am so sorry for you and your horse. This is a nightmare, how awful for your poor horse. Good thoughts for him.
You may have little choice but to look for a place that will do the medication/rehab for him, if you can’t. Just an opinion, but if it is simply impossible to provide him with the recovery resources he needs (financial and/or logistics), take that into account in consideration his long-term future. These are heart-wrenching decisions that we all pray we will not be faced with.
If you decide to euth, and if this suggestion is worth anything, imo all that matters to him is the good life you gave him. Horses do not know about length of life, just what life is like for them, now. He has NO idea about the decision and will not even know about the peaceful termination. The heartache is all with the people, not the horse. His companion will adjust within weeks - their great gift is that they don’t think about the past. You can do what is right for you, and it is right for him as well.
If you decide to take steps in small claims court (I assume the only possible legal avenue) I would leave out all the back history about starving, extra hay, etc. JUST the fact that the nightshade was there is the issue. It doesn’t matter why the horse ate it, just that it was there in the first place. Even if your horse was the only one that ate it. (Unless you can PROVE that feeding wasn’t taking place.)
Good luck and all the best … thinking of you and your horse. {{hug}}
Mine is “horsenettle” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_carolinense#mediaviewer/File:Solanum_carolinense_in_flower.jpg
It has cherry tomato sized yellow fruit and is poisonous as well.
I think you would have a hard time holding your BO responsible. Different types of noxious weeds grow in everyone’s pastures to some degree. Even with spraying, fertilizing and seeding there still can be noxious plants; there’s no reasonable way for a BO to be able to guarantee 100% that a horse wouldn’t have access to some type of noxious plant/mushroom etc. Even if a pasture by some miracle was 100% weed free, noxious substances can turn up in hay.
The reality is that many BO’s and other type of farm owners do not spray, fertilize and seed pastures regularly due to the expense. There also are environmental concerns with regard to spraying and I think it is acceptable for a farm to choose not use herbicides on those grounds. In sum, noxious plants in fields or in hay isn’t proof of negligence.
You also admit that you don’t know for sure whether or not the hay was being fed adequately or not. Merely suspecting that this was the root cause isn’t enough “proof” to ask someone to pay your horse’s significant vet bill.
I think you made a mistake to choose to keep–or continue to keep–your horses somewhere where there was no grass, plentiful toxic weeds, and concerns about adequate/regular feeding. I’m going to hazard a guess here that this place with the run down, weedy pasture with the care care performed by an owner with other priorities featured a low monthly cost as the main attraction. I don’t think it is fair to choose a cheap, inadequate boarding facility with obvious management issues and potential safety issues and then hold the BO responsible when things don’t work out well. I understand your pain and frustration, but horses are fragile animals that sometimes run up significant vet bills.
I don’t even know where to start, some of these post are so far off the mark…did some of you even READ what I posted??? :eek: A few of you have some nerve making assumptions about cost, priorities, or anything else. You simply haven’t clue #1 of what you speak…
A few of you seem to have excellent reading comprehension and totally “get it” (and for that I thank you sincerely!!) that we PAY for BOARD when we are unable, for one reason or another, to care for them ourselves…say, perhaps, if we happen to be caring for a temporarily bedridden family member? Or perhaps have a problem involving a small child? In those circumstances, I would think it would be acceptable to skip visiting the horse every single day and trust that the board you’re PAYING for would have safety as a priority, and that things would be as they were when the horses arrived there and for the first month afterwards.
If I could do self-care, I would. But I can’t, so I pay people right now. For years, they were at home, so don’t give me this “I don’t understand what it’s like” attitude about poison in a pasture or what it takes to maintain a farmette. I did it. I know. I was extremely diligent, and no, when they had enough forage to pick at, they didn’t eat any weeds at all. However, I still made sure there was nothing deadly in a pasture that was many times the size of the one they’re in now! And if you stay on top of them, they don’t multiply that quickly!
Nowhere did I say I knew they weren’t getting enough hay and that there was a ton of nightshade on the property and make a conscious decision to leave them there. HOW DARE you insinuate that I care so little! :mad: You ASSume and then judge based on your ASSUmptions, regardless of how screwed up and inaccurate they are. If you really don’t “get” it, reread my posts at face value and don’t add what you “guess” probably happened. It didn’t!
This was all over a 2 week period that I wasn’t there as much and I believe that due to not getting their EXTRA hay (which I was informed by other boarders about, attributing it to the change in chore detail), he was bored enough to nibble on poisonous plants in his small 1/4-1/2 acre turn out lot. I NEVER said he wasn’t getting ADEQUATE feed or was starved there! Extra that I pay for was the issue…he was too thin after last winter, so I moved him somewhere MORE expensive and paid for EXTRA hay. They have gained weight beautifully here!
We have had A LOT of rain and things have sprung up seemingly out of nowhere…things that typically, the grass keeps from taking over, but as grass slows down, weeds flourish.
Do some of you realize that certain plants grow at different times/different rates and maybe, just maybe, they weren’t visible before, when the grass was more plentiful, before it slowed down? Could it be that the owner was aware that it gets bad this time of year, but a boarder who came there 2 months ago couldn’t possibly know that?!
And where did this colic idea come from??? This has nothing to do with colic (or “shit happens” as someone else said)! He didn’t colic! Of course I wouldn’t “blame” someone else if a horse had colic, or was kicked by another horse and had a leg broken, etc. THAT would fall under “shit happens”. Those are sheer accidents. My horse was POISONED in his own turnout pasture, which, as I stated very very clearly, is a SMALL LOT, ie, no excuse for “missing” it if you’re walking the lot as you should, especially if you’re taking others’ money in exchange for caring for their horses. He nearly died!
I made an entire BURN PILE out of the stuff I pulled around the various pastures and fencelines, stuff that WAS NOT THERE when I moved them there. And yes, the BO WAS AWARE OF IT. HE SAID ‘IT’S NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM BEFORE’ and “It’s always bad this time of year.” Awareness of a DEADLY plant ALL OVER the property, to me, is neglect. The BO admitted it. He said he’s terribly sorry that he never bothered to do anything about it because he’s always known about it.
How did anyone read my posts and come to the conclusion that this is about colic and wanting to keep my horses in some run-down place and then blame the BO??? That’s mind-boggling.
This is about outright poisoning via a KNOWN toxic plant in a place that’s supposed to be safe for him. Other boarders are telling me I should demand that the BO pay my vet bills, at a minimum, because apparently, it’s been mentioned before (unbeknownst to me until now) and he neglected to remove it. I was curious about others’ opinions. Again, I thank those who read and understood not only the circumstances, but the question, though you were far outnumbered by a loud few who place judgement without even comprehending the actual problem or circumstances leading to it, either due to not bothering to read or just being inherently nasty.
p.s. Whoever asked about boots…yes, he has boots 
He is eating up all this attention. People are coming just to visit him and see how he is. He’s got a fan club. He also has a farrier who is known for founder rehab, so we have hope. It’s just extremely difficult to manage in the way that I would like to manage him when I can’t do 100% of it myself. I am OCD about animal care. I fully admit it. I cannot understand how someone can NOT be that way…they depend on us.
Helpful comments relating to similar experiences can be PM’d, please!
I would see what I could do about getting your horse onto a wider margin of better health before approaching the BO about compensation for the bills. I know of BO’s who compensate for vet bills without any hesitation if the responsibility lies with them for the incident, and others who do not compensate for any vet bills, regardless of cause. I don’t know where your BO falls along these lines, but for now, your horse comes first. You will know best what you can handle for a time schedule for nursing, and how to get it done. That’s where I would start in deciding what to do about moving your horses. Compensation falls further down the line.
Poisonous plant seeds blow into the best of fields. I have a friend who grows organic hay on large acreage. She had her farm manager bale a small portion of it and sold it to the farmer next door for his cows. Two died after eating the first feeding of it, and that’s when she found out that some poisonous plant had blown into the field. She compensated the farmer for his cattle, and they were discussing either going through the acreage digging it all out or scrapping the field when I left the situation.
Additionally, one of my post-surgery geriatric horses ate we still don’t know what out of the pasture and almost died several years ago. He was the only one who became ill out of 60 head on 75 acres, but poisoning was the diagnosis. We never found out what it was, and never found the plant(s) in question. However, the pasture was located in an area with constant winds, and we had had hurricanes and storms with heavy winds, so it is no surprise something blew into the pasture. It stinks, but it happens. In your BO’s case, since he is only on 6 acres, with small paddocks and was lazy about the mowing, it becomes a negligence issue. Yes, he is at fault. I don’t know your BO, but I would suggest that cooler heads will prevail here. If you are looking at keeping this horse, then try to find alternate housing or bring him home. If your current BO does not compensate for vet bills, or if the reduced board bill is the best he will do, then you may be out of luck in getting help with the bills, but it is worth a well-timed, cool-headed discussion about it with him. I wish you and your horse the best of luck for a good recovery and timely compensation.
ETA: I see we were posting somewhat close in time to one another. The BO knew it was there and didn’t feed enough forage to prevent it, then he is totally at fault. It may or may not help with the compensation. Some BO’s do not pay any part on vet bills, regardless of their culpability. Again, good luck with your horse.
Depends where you live. I would think the BO would be responsible but the only way to find out is court.
In my area we have small claims (maximum claim of $5,000) for a filing fee of $25.00. You do it yourself and don’t need an attorney.
You could first ask BO to assist with vet bills… if they decline - move horses pronto!!! Then file a claim and let a judge decide.
I would think if you just ask for your vet bill reimbursements and that you were paying board to a business, had your vet records showing the horse had this poisoning, photos of the pastures with the nightshade, it would seem reasonable that the BO is responsible.
IMHO… I am so sorry this happened to your horse. 
I sure hope he recovers for you!!!
[QUOTE=Baldwin;7759777]
I don’t even know where to start, some of these post are so far off the mark…did some of you even READ what I posted???
Do some of you realize that certain plants grow at different times/different rates and maybe, just maybe, they weren’t visible before, when the grass was more plentiful, before it slowed down? Could it be that the owner was aware that it gets bad this time of year, but a boarder who came there 2 months ago couldn’t possibly know that?!
I made an entire BURN PILE out of the stuff I pulled around the various pastures and fencelines, stuff that WAS NOT THERE when I moved them there. And yes, the BO WAS AWARE OF IT. HE SAID ‘IT’S NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM BEFORE’ and “It’s always bad this time of year.” Awareness of a DEADLY plant ALL OVER the property, to me, is neglect. The BO admitted it. He said he’s terribly sorry that he never bothered to do anything about it because he’s always known about it.
This is about outright poisoning via a KNOWN toxic plant in a place that’s supposed to be safe for him. [/QUOTE]
Well, why ask if you aren’t going to listen to people’s responses?
A number of us said that nightshade (and other toxic plants) grow in most pastures, and that expecting the BO to eradicate all noxious weeds is unrealistic. If it only takes 1-2 nibbles of nightshade to poison your horse, it would mean eliminating every weed. Good luck with that. I’ll bet there isn’t a pasture in my county that doesn’t have some nightshade in it. MOST horses will NOT eat it. So, I’m with the BO on this one - it’s not normally a problem. (That said, mowing it keeps it from spreading, but even in a pasture loaded with weeds, most horses won’t eat it.)
Do I think the BO has some responsibility? Sure, because it’s a boarding barn and your horse was being boarded – but for whatever reason there was inadequate hay being provided, and this was the result. It’s not just about the presence of nightshade.
But do I think you have some responsibility? Yes. It’s your horse. Shit happens. Would it still be the BO’s responsibility if this was a lush pasture and your horse reached over the fence and ate nightshade? Or is it only the BO’s responsibility because there wasn’t something else to eat?
It sounds like the real issue was inadequate hay. Whether this was a long term or short term problem.
I am sorry about your horse, and hope he has a full recovery.
I hope your boy recovers.
If your guys are in a paddock together, is it dedicated to them? Can you get them a roundbale? (realizing they may blow right by it)
I’m not sure if you have a contract for boarding or what it says.I think there is typical hold harmless lingo in reference to injury to person or horses.
From a nonlawyer but a long long time horse owner, former BO and current (blessedly) HO with NO boarders and boarder for many years, I don’t think you can hold the BO responsible. But hey, I’d be hopping mad and thinking about a way to defract from my cost, as well. Prob the only way you would know is asking an equine attorney. Boo.
You know, sometimes crap happens. I was at a BNT 18 years ago. My horse broke his leg there. He was last one brought in, was pissed, kicked out and hit a rail of the fence the wrong way. I was beyond devastated and man, I was PISSED. At the world, at the barn help, at the BM. My horse lived, I moved him, I see BNT at shows and am polite but cool. In my heart, there is no doubt SOMEHOW it was their fault- the horse hated being last brought in, he was upste, why didn’t they get him? Did he learn his lesson? Ug. But in my head- crap happens.
Good luck with your boy.
I’d consider moving him/them to a dry lot for now, as there is a chance or him eating it again, no? That would be my first priority. I’d ask my vet for boarding suggestions- I got great suggestions for recovery boarding places from mine once.
Once they are in a safe place I’d send a letter asking for half the cost.
If they don’t pay it I’d probably let it go, much as it hurts financially.
One piece of information you have now: this is not a safe place to be, period.
So, take the information and act on it. IMO it’s more important to act on information relevant to right now then trying to right a wrong that has already happened.
If the BO didn’t feed your horses that’s obviously a problem, but you have stated clearly that you have no proof, only suspicion. Gossip from other boarders isn’t proof unless they were out there for long enough to fully witness a days’ feeding schedule AND willing to stand up and say that to the BO or in court. Even if the BO was negligent in regards to not following the horse’s feeding schedule, there also are plenty of cases where plant poisonings occur even when horses have PLENTY of appropriate feed/forage in front of them. There also are plenty of cases of poisonings in very well cared for fields, and MANY cases where there are absolutely NO poisonings in fields infested with noxious weeds.
You have my sympathy re: your horse’s illness, but this is just one of those things. Legally, it may be that the BO has some culpability if he didn’t feed the horses, but you don’t have proof of that. Even with proof of that, you can’t prove that the lack of hay directly led to the poisoning. I think your best option is to move your horses to a better facility. If your personal circumstances don’t allow you to pay for that or travel for that, that’s a tough problem, but horses are expensive to keep and there’s just no way around that.
And I stand by what I said about cost. I don’t know what board prices are in your area, but realistically if your personal circumstances force you to board somewhere with a lower price, you are going to have to expect and accept lesser service. Inexpensive board does not pay for expensive things like big grassy pastures, spraying with herbicides, or the time consuming labor to dig out weeds. If you are paying $200-300/month in board, I don’t think you can reasonably expect your BO to be spending $200-300 on paddock maintenance.
I think people were talking about colic as one would think that would’ve been a likely outcome of nightshade poisoning. Atropine is one of the toxic agents and it causes bad ileus in horses. Even atropine administered topically on the eye can cause ileus.
[QUOTE=Beethoven;7760112]
I think people were talking about colic as one would think that would’ve been a likely outcome of nightshade poisoning. Atropine is one of the toxic agents and it causes bad ileus in horses. Even atropine administered topically on the eye can cause ileus.[/QUOTE]
That is what I was saying.
And I have to say that it seems mildly odd that the horse developed laminitis from the nightshade.
OP, my heart goes out to you, and I understand why you’re upset when you don’t think everyone paid attention to the details of your situation.
I advise not letting anything in this thread add even more stress to an already overwhelming situation. Posting on the internet can bring some knowledgeable feedback and replies. But it does mean reading responses through your own personal filter, because there will always be some that aren’t useful. Some of the posters have good intentions but didn’t get the situation; others don’t have such good intentions.
Just ignore anything that isn’t helping you. Don’t worry about trying to explain further to those who aren’t trying to understand your situation. They aren’t obligated to do so. You aren’t obligated to try to make a connection with them.
Wishing you and your horse all the best. I hope you’ll update the thread and let us know how this turns out. There are at least some people responding and reading who really do care.
OP let me say how sorry I am you are going through this. The problem with bringing an issue to the board is this - that sometimes the question you ask isn’t the question that people read - the thread drifts as they all do - people respond to each other and not the OP.
Best wishes for your guy and love the idea that he has a fan club now - hope he makes a full recovery.
Wishing for a speedy recovery for the horse.
I have to say, this thread brings up a concern that many barn owners may consider adding to their boarding contracts – not being liable for the presence of toxic weeds in the pasture.
The list of plants toxic to horses is long… and I think it would be a rare pasture that never sees a toxic weed… Here’s a list
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/horse-plant-list
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7760226]
I advise not letting anything in this thread add even more stress to an already overwhelming situation. Posting on the internet can bring some knowledgeable feedback and replies. But it does mean reading responses through your own personal filter, because there will always be some that aren’t useful. Some of the posters have good intentions but didn’t get the situation; others don’t have such good intentions.
Just ignore anything that isn’t helping you. Don’t worry about trying to explain further to those who aren’t trying to understand your situation. They aren’t obligated to do so. You aren’t obligated to try to make a connection with them. :)[/QUOTE]
I don’t think this is bad advice, but I just wanted to comment that I did not get the impression that any of the responses were being deliberately unhelpful or had any intentions other than giving an opinion.
It is the internet - people will make assumptions. People assumed that the barn wasn’t nice because of things the OP said - paddock filled with nothing but weeds, that have not been mowed since she arrived, that horses did not receive enough hay (at some point in time), and that the OP had budget constraints that would make it difficult to move them.
You can’t expect everyone to agree with your position; and a lot of people didn’t know that they would expect to hold the BO responsible for nightshade poisoning.
saultgirl, I was just thinking the same thing. Yesterday when I was dragging my pasture I looked for nightshade because of this thread. I was surprised not to find more than I did, but I did find some, along with all kinds of other weeds that may not be noxious including bittersweet, daisies, buttercup, cow parsnip, and yarrow from your list. I only have 4 acres of fenced pasture, but it is divided, so I probably have 2000 feet or more of fenceline (where most of these weeds are found). I would have to weed-whack it weekly (inside and out) to keep these weeds at bay. I’m sure there is more nightshade than I can find, as well, because as the OP stated - it climbs, and is often entwined in other weeds, on fenceposts, fencelines, etc.
What a rotten situation. I do understand how “undesirable” plants like to sprout up especially when the turf is under high stress. 1/4 acre is never going to be a true forage pasture - it’s an animal concentration area, and any grass growing there is incidental.
Although I maintain the turf at our boarding facility, and know it’s impossible to prevent every oak twig, buttercup, or walnut leaf out of the pastures, I have to say it sounds rather neglectful when something this toxic is recognized and permitted to get “pretty bad this time of year”. Every horse is different and has different tendencies, so that argument is moot. I’ve not had to fight nightshade, but 95% of the noxious weeds I know do suffer against regular mowing or weed trimming and struggle to reproduce in open fields when their flowing/fruit cycle is interrupted.
The lack of extra hay seems to be a valid argument. Especially if your horse eats up the hay first before foraging. More hay (that he eats), less foraging. It’s quite simple.
David
It is funny I read this thread today, as I’m waiting for Crop Production Services to come spray my field with herbicide!
I board horses, and have over 20 acres in pastures. So, not the 100’s of acres Bluey has, but enough that I can guarantee I have toxic weeds in my fields. All the posters who are horrified and expect every barn to be weed-free – you have no clue. Sorry to be blunt.
My fields are mowed regularly; I just tested the soil and it is perfect (which was a surprise) and I have a lot of excellent grass. I also have buttercups, jimsonweed and milkweed.
If you want weed-free pastures, you need to either board at a place with dry lots (and then be vigilant and hand pull the weeds that will grow) or board at a place with small paddocks and a very intensive system of horse care and be prepared to pay a very high board rate.
I’m spraying my field because it is being taken over by a harmless to horses weed that is starting to crowd out the grass. It is going to cost me approximately $2,000 for the 11 acre field, and I may well have to repeat this next spring.
Most people don’t want herbicides on their horses’ pasture; if for some reason someone did with my set up I would have to dramatically raise my board prices to cover the additional thousands (I’d guess as much as $10,000/year) in expenses I don’t now have.
I think Bee Honey’s point is a good one: you get what you pay for.
