Horse poisoned by nightshade in pasture- whose responsibility?

I assume I will be accused of not reading because I am not falling on the side of evil barn owner here.

I am very sorry the OP’s horse is ill. Jingling for a swift and full recovery.

I look at these situations this way.
You, by your own posting, say you are an experienced horse owner. You know that a small area of pasture with horses on it will become over grazed very quickly. So though no matter how many times you say it, the field being over grazed is not truly the fault of the BO. It is just one of those facts that happens with limited grazing acreage and too many horses. All numbers you as an owner could do in your head when you pick the place. Well, unless you want your horse kept inside. But that is a whole bunch of other issues.

You say no grain, extra hay. If they are fed hay twice per day (which in the grand scheme of things can mean nothing, if they toss 50lbs per horse 2x per day that is more than plenty, if they toss 5lbs per horse 2x per day that is going to be skimpy is there is no grazing) and they are tossing your extra it might not mean there is still enough hay to keep some horses from eating stuff they should not.
Some horses with free choice hay still chew fences or pick at dry leaves or such.

You, the OP say it has been raining so the weeds are growing like crazy. Most people do not mow when it is raining or wet. Is that same rain maybe the reason the paddocks have not been mowed as regularly as possible? I know it has been a problem at my place this year.

To me this sounds like a horrible thing that happened to a horse. Not a reason to make the BO into a villain or expect him to pay the vet bills.

OP, first of all jingles for your poor horse (and you and your wallet as well).

I’ve acted as a BM, owned my own farm for a few years and have boarded, so I have seen it all. IMHO if the paddocks are small and the owner knew about the issue then yes it might be neglect if you can prove it, in the eyes of the law. If the pastures are large and/or not accessible by machinery then it should be a matter of graze at your own risk. IMHO the BO should have disclosed this risk since it appears as though they knew about it.

I also couldn’t disagree more with the ‘you get what you pay for’ comments. In my area we have some really ritzy barns that a huge price in board will get you some fancy arenas but the actual care to the horses stinks. Honestly in my area, the best equine husbandry comes from the small operations that charge $150-$300 but don’t have the fancy arena.

OP - Jingles to your horse.
My suggestions would be to take pictures of the stuff if its still there. Make sure the vet records detail the cause of his illness. Is there any other papertrail? Boarding agreement? Get this info all together so you have it.

The tricky part is whether to have a money discussion now or after you announce departure. If BO is feeling some remorse, I’d be inclined to have a discussion sooner rather than later - pick a number above what he offered that you could be satisfied with and have a reason why you think that amount is appropriate.
If things get really testy, you could raise the idea of small claims court (thus the evidence gathering). But I think if you go that path, the horses should be already relocated.
Good luck

[QUOTE=Miss-O;7761798]

I also couldn’t disagree more with the ‘you get what you pay for’ comments. In my area we have some really ritzy barns that a huge price in board will get you some fancy arenas but the actual care to the horses stinks. Honestly in my area, the best equine husbandry comes from the small operations that charge $150-$300 but don’t have the fancy arena.[/QUOTE]

No, I must have been unclear. I emphatically do not mean you need to spend, or that you get better care, at a place with chandeliers in the aisles that charges $2,000/month (sorry, there’s a barn like this in my area).

I do mean that you might have to pay $400 instead of $300, or $250 for pasture board in order to ensure excellent fencing, well maintained (mowed) pastures, clean waterers/buckets, a higher level of service (blanketing? giving medication e.g.), having hay constantly in front of them in winter – all these things that I’ve just mentioned cost money. If you find somewhere cheaper, either you won’t get these things(or some of them) OR the BO is subsidizing the farm and you lucked out!

[QUOTE=SMF11;7762024]
No, I must have been unclear. I emphatically do not mean you need to spend, or that you get better care, at a place with chandeliers in the aisles that charges $2,000/month.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this was exactly my point too. I don’t think anyone was saying that you can’t find good care at a low price point, just that paying $200/month in board is very likely going to come with much less hands on facility care and attention than $2000/month (though certainly there are places that will rob you blind on that end of the spectrum too).

Toxic weeds happen in pastures. Toxic weeds happen more frequently in overgrazed pastures. Horses are more likely to eat the weeds if they don’t have anything else to eat. You knew the pasture was overgrazed and I can’t tell from your posts if the horse had adequate hay or not, because you say he wasn’t getting enough hay and then you say the hay was adequate. You say hay was only given twice a day, but that’s standard for most barns. Whatever the case, you knew the pasture was overgrazed and weedy. Your horse may have eaten weeds that caused illness. I think you have responsibility here.

If you put your horse in a pasture with barbed wire fencing and your horse cut himself on it, would you expect the barn owner to pay for the vet bills because the horse was injured on non-horse safe fencing?

I hope your horse recovers from whatever caused his laminitis. Big jingles for that!

OP, how is your horse doing? I hope healing up well.

Would your replies be different if the HO had no knowledge of weeds/grasses? ie a regular boarder like myself? I would rely on my BO to know and manage the pastures accordingly… that’s why I board! I don’t have an ag degree. The fact that the HO knew a bit should not remove any responsibility from the BO. They cash the cheque every month and I would expect a safe environment for my horse.
I am lucky that my BO walks her large pastures often and supplements with tons of hay when the grass gets eaten down… but I rely on her to do that…

[QUOTE=FalseImpression;7762617]
Would your replies be different if the HO had no knowledge of weeds/grasses?[/QUOTE]
Not really, because the vast majority of the time, the horses don’t touch this stuff. I wouldn’t consider the barn owner negligent.

[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7762557]
If you put your horse in a pasture with barbed wire fencing and your horse cut himself on it, would you expect the barn owner to pay for the vet bills because the horse was injured on non-horse safe fencing?[/QUOTE]
I had a horse that DIED (septic arthritis) from a barbed wire injury.

The Barn Owner had repalced the barbed with with more horse friendly fencing, and claimed that ALL the barbed wire had been removed. But there was a clump of underbrush that had some barbed wire in it and she got into that, and got a cut that went into the joint sac on the hock.

I moved her to another facility, but it never occured to me to expect the barn owner to pay the very expensive vet bills. (This was before major medical inusrance for horses was commonly available.)

To me it’s more of a question of possible negligence of the BO vs. responsibility, and if the OP wants to pursue some sort of court action (small claims a la Judge Judy) then she would have to prove that the BO was negligent in his care of the horse. Unless it’s a self care situation, the boarding operation has care, custody and control of the horse - that’s what we’re paying for. And part of that includes the minimum standards of care. Sounds like the BO met these standards. Was he negligent in failing not to mow field to keep weed population down? Tough call. Was he negligent in not giving horse adequate hay in field lacking vegetation? Hay that OP was paying extra for the horses? IMO it could be the lack of adequate hay that might prove negligence against the BO but can she prove that BO didn’t get the hay as required by the OP? Since OP is not, at this time, pursuing legal action, if I were her, i might see if the BO would be amenable to splitting some of the vet costs. If BO is not willing to share costs, then if OP has enough documentation to prove her negligence, take him to court for all or part of the vet bills.

I hope your horse recovers. i kind of know what you’re going thru as I had some large vet bills due to an unhealthy boarding situation as well.

We are a boarding operation but no so much for “pleasure” horse owners. Ours is a TB, breeding, raising, breaking, training, re-hab, re-school, lay up and R &R. Regardless of the orientation of an operation if someone is paying for “complete care” then IMO it is the total responsibility of the operator to provide a safe environment. This IMO is not an unreasonable assumption of a client. I think in a court of law it would be considered “implied”. Regardless of the size of the property and or what is being charged for full care board. That being said a farm owner that offers self-care field board may be held responsible in the same sense as full care. The farm owner may not be responsible for care and feeding and over all well fair of the boarding horse but maybe held responsible for providing a safe environment that being the paddock and or pasture/field. Proper fencing, and proper management practices of what’s in that paddock/pasture/field. In short pasture management that would be considered “normal and customary” and in keeping with the standards of the business/industry. I think this would also fall under “implied”.

Now, even with proper pasture management practices SOME noxious weeds can and will be found in LAEGE paddocks/pasture/fields. The operative word being some. But it should be a given that there is more then adequate grass to keep horses happy and not resort to nibble let alone eating enough of something to be poisoned. There are exceptions in certain areas of the country. In West Texas and Oklahoma friends have told me they need more then 10 acres per cow. I was told in some parts of Utah it can be as much as 600+ per cow. But land that is way land is “dirt” cheap hence the name because that is basically all you are getting. I digress.

We are talking about 6 acres here. The amount of time it would take “police” the paddocks is nothing. The amount of time to mow on a regular bases is nothing. A decent zero turn can mow 6 acres of grass in couple of hours. When I mow I am not “asleep at the wheel” I am constantly checking things out, looking for what needs to be dealt with, weeds, fencing, holes, what ever. Make note and come back and address. IMO this is one of the things my clients are paying me for.

The cost to spray broad leaf herbicide on 6 acres is nothing in the grand scheme of things. And by and large could be done with a spot sprayer that cost under $100. Heck IMO such small acreage could be hand weeded when needed depending on the weed. Certainly nightshade pretty easy to identify and pull if kept on top of and not allowed to go to seed year in year out. We have around 50+ acres fenced and I haven’t had to spend any where near $2,000 on herbicide over a number of years let alone per year.

Yes, shit happens and most people are understanding of this. You can put a horse in a padded stall and it may get hurt. IMO this falls under “shit happens”. Allowing something like nightshade to grow especially a “patch” in what should be very visible in such a small paddock with little to no grass under my standards irresponsible. I believe a court of law would see it the same. We are paid to understand the “laws of probability”. A couple of nightshade growing in a 6 acre paddock that is other wise in good grass presents low risk. A patch growing in 6 acres of basically dirt and weeds is HIGH risk. IMO no matter how much hay may be given. Horses by nature are driven to graze not just stand over a hay bale. Especially during grass growing season. I don’t care how good the hay is. This is horsemanship 101.

IMO any boarding farm owner that feels this falls under “shit happens” based on the information supplied by the OP better be carrying a lot of liability insurance. And it wouldn’t surprise me if a suite was brought by someone with a similar scenario that was well documented with pictures and was awarded damages their insurance company would deny the claim due to negligence.

IMO based on the information and details given by the OP the BO should be happy to pay the vet bills and consider themselves lucky to have such an understanding client. They are getting off cheap.

This would be the last thing I would want to go to court over as a BO. I have been involved as an “expert witness” and know several who are have been hired on a regular bases. Have discussed a number of “cases” with them. I guarantee everyone on this thread would be shocked at a lot of the damage awards over things that people think fall under “shit happens”. And I am not talking just about expensive well bred Thoroughbreds. Which is why we carry millions of dollars of liability insurance.

I have read a number of threads that deal with “what do you look for/ask” when looking for a boarding farm. I don’t recall anyone bring up BO’s liability insurance.

Basic fixed cost to board a horse is around $6-8 per day. This is the minimum cost of feed, hay and labor. Nothing else. $180-240 a month no stall. So any place that is only charging $300-$400 per month is making little to no money, gravy, let alone maintaining a decent liability insurance policy. The more horses the higher the premium. A “no lesson, no riding barn”, just basic boarding policy is $$$$$ for bottom level coverage.

[QUOTE=gumtree;7762881]
I have read a number of threads that deal with “what do you look for/ask” when looking for a boarding farm. I don’t recall anyone bring up BO’s liability insurance.[/QUOTE]
I think I would have to scratch my head if a person looking to board asked first about liability insurance.

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7762912]
I think I would have to scratch my head if a person looking to board asked first about liability insurance.[/QUOTE]

Trubandloki you made me laugh out loud.

Gumtree – get a quote from Broadstone. My experience has been that the insurance is excellent and inexpensive (relatively speaking).

I don’t disagree that this could have been addressed easily by the BO at any time rather than have an incident – if I read correctly the OP said that her two horses were in a 1/4-1/2 acre pasture (which, in my opinion, would be a dry lot, not a pasture) with weeds.

If I had been the BO - I wouldn’t have let nightshade grow to that extent. Why wouldn’t you be cautious, just in case?

But, I disagree that “certainly nightshade pretty easy to identify and pull if kept on top of and not allowed to go to seed year in year out” when you’re talking about thousands of feet of fenceline (I have 2x4 mesh so weeds climb it; and there are sections that I cannot mow on the outside due to trees, drainage ditches, etc.)

I agree that a few nightshade plants is a low risk situation…but low risk means that poisoning could happen. I don’t know that it would be really possible to prevent it from ever happening.

My point was that if the horse reached over the fenceline of a lush pasture and ate nightshade, would this still be the same situation? I think the main issue in the OP’s case is that the horse was in a tiny “pasture” with nothing to eat but weeds. And, again, MOST horses wouldn’t have eaten nightshade unless they were literally starving.

I think if I ever board again (which probably means never), I will write in a disclaimer that there could be noxious plants in the pasture.

Why would I care if a BO has liability insurance? Unless I want to make sure I can sue them for millions. Liability insurance for the BO is to protect the BO, not to protect the borders.

[QUOTE=PlanB;7763069]
Why would I care if a BO has liability insurance? Unless I want to make sure I can sue them for millions. Liability insurance for the BO is to protect the BO, not to protect the borders.[/QUOTE]

Because suing someone who is both broke and uninsured yields you nothing. Suing someone who is insured means there is some money for this purpose.

David

[QUOTE=DHCarrotfeeder;7763395]
Because suing someone who is both broke and uninsured yields you nothing. Suing someone who is insured means there is some money for this purpose.

David[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why it would be red flag for me if someone I didn’t know but who wanted to board with me seemed overly interested in my insurance situation!

However, in this case wouldn’t it be the Care Custody and Control insurance that would kick iin?

[QUOTE=DHCarrotfeeder;7763395]
Because suing someone who is both broke and uninsured yields you nothing. Suing someone who is insured means there is some money for this purpose.

David[/QUOTE]

Thank you David

[QUOTE=PlanB;7763069]
Why would I care if a BO has liability insurance? Unless I want to make sure I can sue them for millions. Liability insurance for the BO is to protect the BO, not to protect the borders.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but this is not correct. It serves both the BO and Boarder equally by and large. Which I tried to explain in my lengthy post below.