Horse poisoned by nightshade in pasture- whose responsibility?

[gumtree]

To suggest that because a boarding operation carries top notch insurance is a “red flag” meaning they may not be competent and or the potential client maybe a potential PITA is a bit silly IMO. It is a responsible question when looking for a boarding farm. And certainly shouldn’t be over looked. Especially if the BO rents. Most people carry bare minimum auto liability insurance. If they have little to no assets this maybe the way to go. The same can be said with health insurance because a hospital has to treat an emergency case. But if someone causes an accident in which a person/s is seriously injured they will be liable for their medical expenses. If they have no assets there is nothing to take and most likely they will be forced to declare bankruptcy. The same for emergency health care expenses. The worst case scenario is to be under insured with assets. And lets not forget the injured party. They did nothing wrong but they could suffer tremendous financial hardship if someone is under insured and not insured at all. IMO carrying proper insurance is a not only being socially responsible but morally also.

Lets say a person is boarding at a farm that is under insured, or has no insurance what so ever. Their horse gets out of their stall in the middle of the night for what ever reason. The owner shows up early the next morning to find their horse wondering around the farm. Most people would be up set but most likely would let it go as “shit happens”. Please don’t let it happen again.

A horse gets out but this time the horse ends up wondering down the road and is hit by a car which not only causes extensive damage to the car but also serious injury to the people in it. Not to mention what happened to the horse. Now we are talking about a serious law suite. The BO will certainly be sued for a lot of money. Not only for damages to the car, major medical bills but also pain and suffering, loss of income the list could go on and on considering the tort laws in most states. Which are heavily stacked against business owners. Damages could easily be well over a million dollars more like millions. The majority of most likely will be thrown at the BO. But I can pretty much a guarantee that the horse owner will be sued also. Believe it or not. And if so and they are hit with a percentage of the damage award I doubt their personal insurance will cover it. Their only recourse would be to sue the BO after the fact. This is how it works in the real world. We live in a litigious country that should come as no surprise. But if the BO has crappy insurance and their coverage was exhausted and they have little to no assets the horse owner could take quite a financial hit. Possibly a major one if they have substantial assets and limited insurance. Litigation attorneys know who to go after and how hard.

Another scenario, a boarder’s colt is mistakenly turned out with another colt and they get into a serious who’s bigger match up. One or both get seriously injured and the owners are hit with major vet bills. Do people here really feel this falls under “shit happens”. Maybe if it wasn’t their horse. If the horse/s are rendered pasture ornaments or worse and have to be put down. The BO will have to come up with the money and it could be major money depending on the value of the horse. And the value of a horse is very subjective when dealing with a judge, jury and a very good litigation attorney. A good expert witness can easily make a $5,000 colt into a projected $500-1,000,000+ stallion in a “best case scenario”. Judge and juries have little to no expertise when it comes to horses and the business of. A good expert witness knows how to explain things that are easily understandable to the average laymen. I’ve seen it happen.

Anybody that has worked around horses on a professional level for any length of time has seen any number of things that could have ended up a lot worse. All insurance is not created equal. None is blanket without paying top dollar. And pretty much everything is spelled out in the policy somewhere.

IMO anyone checking out places to board would be remise in their due diligence not inquiring, discuss insurance with the BO. Any attorney would advise the same. They certainly should discuss personal “horse” insurance needs with their homeowners/personal insurance agent. They maybe quite surprised what their personal liability insurance will and will not cover when it comes to horses. Their agent should be able to advise what kind of insurance questions should be asked of the BO.

If the BO is worried about a persective client being an ambulance chaser for $25-50 they can get a background search done. But IMO they certainly shouldn’t take offence at being asked. It is no different then if the BO were to hire a contractor and asked if the company was bonded or not. If not and the roof falls in they have no recourse. Even if it was an “honest” mistake. The “shit happens” defense is a weak one.

For those who think they are not in the “boarding business” because they do not do it for a living and are only renting a stall or two better check with their attorney and insurance agent. I am pretty sure in most states if someone is paid to “keep” a horse it will be considered a business. And that opens up a whole-nother can of worms.

I am not an attorney nor an insurance agent. I am not a paranoid person either. I have been around the block a number of times which makes me a prudent business person. I have seen some “worse case scenarios” and they were not necessarily the exception to the norm.

Me, I’d scratch my head when people take insurance needs lightly.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7763822]
To suggest that because a boarding operation carries top notch insurance is a “red flag” meaning they may not be competent and or the potential client maybe a potential PITA is a bit silly IMO. It is a responsible question when looking for a boarding farm.[/QUOTE]

I think the idea was that if a prospective boarder asked about the barn owner’s insurance coverage as one of their first questions, it might be a red flag…not that the prospective boarder shouldn’t ask about insurance, but if it comes out of their mouth before “how many horses do you board” or “what is your feeding schedule like”…maybe not a boarder I would want at my farm.

But you are right about many people that board being underinsured - when we bought our farm we tried to get additional insurance from our agency and could not get it. We had to buy a farm policy for horse boarding, and it was substantially more expensive. We ultimately concluded that the majority of small backyard barns were probably grossly underinsured. And, if I recall correctly, the biggest liability was that a boarder would be hurt, not their horse. It was a scary prospect to consider having boarders without insurance.

[saultgirl]

I just can’t understand people who own horses, who don’t have liability insurance.

I’m certainly not going to count on the BO having enough insurance to cover my horse.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=S1969;7763992]
I think the idea was that if a prospective boarder asked about the barn owner’s insurance coverage as one of their first questions, it might be a red flag…not that the prospective boarder shouldn’t ask about insurance, but if it comes out of their mouth before “how many horses do you board” or “what is your feeding schedule like”…maybe not a boarder I would want at my farm.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Thank you. That is what I meant.

I in no way think barns should not have insurance. Anyone with a horse is crazy to not have liability insurance, period.

I just think it is a huge red flag if someone comes and looks into boarding and one of their first questions is about the amount of liability insurance.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=DHCarrotfeeder;7763395]
Because suing someone who is both broke and uninsured yields you nothing. Suing someone who is insured means there is some money for this purpose.

David[/QUOTE]

Understood, but really, how many of us have million dollar horses? I’d bet most of us have horses valued under $20k. That’s an amount that could likely be recovered if you put a lien on the farm, etc.

I wouldn’t board at a farm where the person was renting so that’s not applicable to me.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

[QUOTE=S1969;7763992]
I think the idea was that if a prospective boarder asked about the barn owner’s insurance coverage as one of their first questions, it might be a red flag…not that the prospective boarder shouldn’t ask about insurance, but if it comes out of their mouth before “how many horses do you board” or “what is your feeding schedule like”…maybe not a boarder I would want at my farm.[/QUOTE]

A fair point, in that visiting a possible boarding facility is as much an interview for both parties as it is an exchange of information about fees, features, and services. I think saying it’s “the first question” is not literal, but at the end of the day it might be one of the most important factors.

I think that conversation can go a couple of ways. I agree with the importance of it, but if discussed in poor context could become a problem. I would consider posing it as being cognizant about good insurance, good contracts, and a good understanding of responsibilities makes for good business. We all probably agree that being in the horse business is not an indication of having good business experience or conduct. Horses can force us to deal with harsh realities at times, and if such a conversation falls through then to me that’s a red flag of another sort.

As for potential boarders or potential boarding barns, it helps to discuss word-of-mouth with trusted individuals.

David

[BeeHoney]

Gumtree, I agree that boarding operations should carry insurance both to protect themselves and their clients, but I’m not sure that asking about insurance is a meaningful question for a prospective boarder. First of all, I think that barn owners without insurance would probably lie about it if asked, being embarrassed to sound unprofessional if they say no. Also many barns may have some level of insurance but may be very underinsured. Secondly, it’s a rare question to be asked (surprisingly, IMO) and I think that some barn owners would take the question to mean that the prospective boarder would be prone to sue if there was an issue. I agree with you in principle but not in practice.

[saultgirl]

As an aside, can you imagine what the cost of insurance would be, if people were putting in liability claims every time a horse got hurt in turnout??

[kdow]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7765116]
Gumtree, I agree that boarding operations should carry insurance both to protect themselves and their clients, but I’m not sure that asking about insurance is a meaningful question for a prospective boarder. First of all, I think that barn owners without insurance would probably lie about it if asked, being embarrassed to sound unprofessional if they say no. Also many barns may have some level of insurance but may be very underinsured. Secondly, it’s a rare question to be asked (surprisingly, IMO) and I think that some barn owners would take the question to mean that the prospective boarder would be prone to sue if there was an issue. I agree with you in principle but not in practice.[/QUOTE]

People need to remember that it is not just the boarder who might sue, though. Depending on incident, many types of insurance you might have like health insurance may have as part of the agreement the right to try to recover costs - meaning if you are injured at the barn as a result of an accident that they think they can claim the BO could have prevented by better fencing/filling in hole/etc. then they can and will go after the BO to see what they can get. I don’t know if equine insurance policies have similar clauses, having never had a need to read the fine print there.

[Guin]

[QUOTE=PlanB;7764157]
Understood, but really, how many of us have million dollar horses? I’d bet most of us have horses valued under $20k. That’s an amount that could likely be recovered if you put a lien on the farm, etc.
.[/QUOTE]

The value of the HORSE is irrelevant. It’s the cost of the DAMAGE that a horse can do (see Gumtree’s very accurate post!) which results in six or seven-figure numbers.

[Chall]

1. I’ve had the hospital inquire, too much about how my toe crushed. A curt “My horse stepped on My toe” finally shut them up. And I had/have insurance which they checked before I got into the exam room.
   Point here is other people try to sue farms even if they aren’t the injured party.
2. I’ve had a BO hand out paperwork that asked boarders if they had health insurance. Should I have considered that a red flag as much as BOs consider the insurance question from a boarder?

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Guin;7765272]
The value of the HORSE is irrelevant. It’s the cost of the DAMAGE that a horse can do (see Gumtree’s very accurate post!) which results in six or seven-figure numbers.[/QUOTE]

I would think the value of the horse is what matters if we are referring to a boarder suing a barn owner over the loss/illness of a horse.

If a horse causes major damage, the horse owner’s liability policy should cover it.

[Meadow36]

I think you need to decide what is going to make you feel redeemed for the situation. Do you want 100% of vet bills? 50%? Do you want X number of months free board? Think about it, and formulate a plan.

Then, in a CALM moment, set up a meeting with the BO, and quietly discuss what you think is fair. Having a neutral moderator present might be a good idea. Explain that you are upset because you expected the property to be better maintained, etc. At that point ask for what you expect to be fair compensation. Discuss your future needs - stall while horse recovers, extra help with medications, etc.

It sounds like the BO feels responsible/guilty and I think you have a good shot at working something out. A lot of people out there are reasonable, especially when they know they may be at fault and possibly facing a lawsuit. Why not give the BO a chance to offer assistance before you continue to stew in all this anger? It might all work out.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion. You asked what other people might do in a similar situation and this would be what I would do. I would probably look to get 50% of the vet bills paid and help with the recovery process.

Good luck with everything, I really hope your boy has a speedy recovery.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;7765357]
If a horse causes major damage, the horse owner’s liability policy should cover it.[/QUOTE]

I doubt most horse owners carry enough liability insurance (if any) to cover the potential amount of damage a horse can cause. (Maybe I’m thinking of different kinds of damage).

Our biggest concern owning horses (and boarding, when we did) was the potential that a horse could get loose and cause a car accident. Can you imagine the liability to a farm owner if a loose horse caused a fatal accident? Millions of dollars, regardless of the value of the horse.

Maybe an average boarder carries some insurance, but the farm owner is most likely on the hook for something like this. Our homeowners policy would NOT cover any incident for a horse not owned by us; so we had to get a boarding farm policy to truly be safe. (We no longer have that; and have a large umbrella policy instead, since we have no boarders).

I’m curious if most owners have any insurance that would protect their boarding barn - and how much?

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;7765606]
I doubt most horse owners carry enough liability insurance (if any) to cover the potential amount of damage a horse can cause. (Maybe I’m thinking of different kinds of damage). [/QUOTE]

I have a million dollar liability policy on each horse.

But it’s hard to say what’s “enough”. You could have a 5 mil policy and someone sues for 10mil. Or you have a 10mil policy and someone sues for 15.

I just accept the risk that my horse could potentially ruin my entire life on any day … just the same as my horse could potentially kill me. It is what it is.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Guin;7765272]
The value of the HORSE is irrelevant. It’s the cost of the DAMAGE that a horse can do (see Gumtree’s very accurate post!) which results in six or seven-figure numbers.[/QUOTE]

I thought we were discussing the barn owner’s liability to the owner over loss of a horse, as in the original “horse poisoned, who is responsible”.

Although I’m pretty sure if the OP took this to court, the BO would be held responsible.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=PlanB;7766328]
I thought we were discussing the barn owner’s liability to the owner over loss of a horse, as in the original “horse poisoned, who is responsible”.

Although I’m pretty sure if the OP took this to court, the BO would be held responsible.[/QUOTE]

I think Guin’s response was to the tangential discussion of barn insurance which seems to be the issue we are discussing now.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7766338]
I think Guin’s response was to the tangential discussion of barn insurance which seems to be the issue we are discussing now.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think we got some wires crossed somewhere. While we’re getting off track, I have a question:

How much liability insurance is enough for a barn owner? 10 million? 50? 100?

[purplnurpl]

That’s CRAZY! I can’t imagine a horse eating nightshade. Aside from the thorns it’s supposed to be very bitter.

And the owner saying there has never been a nightshade issue before. B.U.L.L. S.H.*.T.!!

I hit my nightshade HARD the year before my homebred was to be born because I didn’t want a naive kiddo out there playing mouthy mouth on those weeds.

It took me 2011, 2012, 2013. THREE SUMMERS to kill [most] the crap. This year it was only about 10% growth of what it was in 2011.
To kill it I had to spot spray with Round Up and be crazy about not letting anyone drag or mow over those suckers.

They are super hard to kill and they don’t just grow in 1. They sprout from a mom plant up to 20 feet away! Their roots are way strong. And they will hang out and make you think they are gone–then sprout over night.

Good luck with your ordeal. It sounds terrible. Jingles to your and your horsie. : (

[trubandloki]

I wish the OP would come back and give us an update on her horse. How is it doing?